Bush admits intelligence was wrong

Discussion in 'Politics' started by neobud, Dec 17, 2005.

  1. neobud

    neobud Begun Flowering

    QUOTE

    Quote: from XXsnickelfritz420XX on 12:08 pm on Dec. 18, 2005
    *Sigh... Saddam DID have WMD. Some sarin, mustard gas & nerve agents were found... Just not in large quantities...(Story buried on page 49G behind the classifieds, so no one can find it.) That is why the Dems stopped crying "Where are the WMD's?" The rest are probably sitting in a bunker in Syria... or buried somewhere in the sand.. Who knows?

    Even still, the U.S. didn't need WMD to justify attacking Iraq... Even though they WERE there...
    The U.S. didn't need all those U.N. resolutions to Justify attacking either... Even though they WERE there...

    Bottom line, The Gulf War #1 never ended. We had a ceace fire agreement that So-Damned-Insane refused to abide by. The U.S. had every right to go in & clean his clock.

    I don't agree with everything that Bush & his cronies have done, but I still say that going into Iraq was / is justified.

    I saw a bumper sticker the other day, depicting an ink stained index finger pointing in the air... The caption read "Democracy, despite the Democrats!"

    For those that can't figure that out... The Iraqi's ink the voters fingers to show that they have already voted.

    The Dems keep wanting us to pull out prematurely, so they can say that it was a total failure... Because they are scared shitless that they will be out of a job soon.

    All you see on "Liberal TV" news are the bad things. They are so caught up in politics and bullshit and the anti-Bush mantra that a large % of the population are getting fed up with it.
    I think the next elections here are going to get quite interesting.

    This post reminds me of the adverse of this quote.

    I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
    Thomas Jefferson (1743 - 1826), to Archibald Stuart, 1791

    Hey guess what? The Korean War is not over either. There is just a cease fire between us. The Elvis wanna be unstable **** in Korea was threatening a launch on the US with Nukes he HAS NUKES and WMD. Hell he addressed his nation dressed in a BABY BLUE JUMPSUITE wearing a pompadore and Platforms for hells sake. Why did we not invade them? It IS ONLY a cease fire, RIGHT? Which one was more of a threat to American people?

    The Dems and Libs are not trying to pul out prematurely to make it a failure. That is typical Replublican paranoid preachings. We did not belong there to begin with.

    Describe Liberal TV to us. Do you not think that people are sick of King George only adressing prescreened audiences? Why is he such a coward? Why won't he adress an unbiased crowd? Do you think that people are not sick of hearing about the apologists? I guess the ??republican TV?? Is there such a thing??? Is sickening those that use free thought as well.

    Bush has been an utter failure in every aspect of Presidency. Name one positive thing he has done for Americans. Name one thing. He was elected again because he was chosen to be elected. If you think for one damn minute your vote means squat then you are sadly mistaken. That is another topic all together but I bet you would be shocked at the facts.

    Saddam Hussien ws put into power by the US government. Do you remember General Storming Norman on live camera inspecting the Iraqi troops saying he would be glad to fight with them as an ally? DO you honestly think the American GOvernment did not know what was going on even then as far as the treatment of their citizens?

    What do you think America would do to Russia if we found out they were stealing oil from our wells? How about Canada? South America? We would kick their asses in the name of protecting our interests that is what we would do.


    Why does the CIA, NSA and FBI send suspected terrorists to Syria and Jordan to be interrogated? Because they can beat the **** out of them innocent or not until they confess. They do this under the guise of "interrogation training" for the other government and joint operation cooperation from the US. Because they know they cannot do that sort of thing here so they go there.

    What is the need for secret CIA prisons over seas? What are they hiding that the American public cannot see? What are they ashamed of?

    Why did they write memos to CIA and FBI agents explaining how to get around the Geneva Conventions Agreement enacted in 1949 and what the extreme limits of what they can do to prisoners were?

    There are several questions that need to be answered by THIS administration because all of this **** has happened under them. It has already been described as the most corrupt administration in the history of America BY OTHER REPUBLICANS!!!!!!!

    We have FISA Judges leaving their positions because it is so far out of whack and so unconstitutional. We had King George try to put a Supreme Court Justice in that had not even elementary skills and understanding of the job. Hell she put one sentence answers on the questionaire.

    YET some of you still try to defend this man. I think it out of arrogance and trying to save face for the obvious wrong decision you made. There is no other POSSIBLE reason other than shear ignorance. The man is indefensible yet some still try.


    They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
    Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759


    We hold in our hands, the most precious gift of all: Freedom. The freedom to express our art. Our love. The freedom to be who we want to be. We are not going to give that freedom away and no one shall take it from us!
    Diane Frolov and Andrew Schneider, Northern Exposure, Cicely, 1992

    The First Amendment is often inconvenient. But that is besides the point. Inconvenience does not absolve the government of its obligation to tolerate speech.
    Justice Anthony Kennedy (1936 - )

    Patterning your life around other's opinions is nothing more than slavery.
    Lawana Blackwell, The Dowry of Miss Lydia Clark, 1999
     
  2. snickelfritz

    snickelfritz Weed College Hall Monitor

    I see that you have given this subject considerable thought, and I mainly have 1 main point to make... ALL POLITICIANS SUCK! Regardless of what side of the political fence they ride.


    Other comments:


    North Korea (Kim Jong Il, the gook Elvis) should have been dealt with a long time ago... Why they haven't been, is a mystery to me... More politics?


    My problem with the media, liberal and conservative alike, is that they are all BIASED! There is no truth in the statement "Fair and balanced." when dealing with the media.


    The media is only concerned with ratings, and generally the truth gets lost somewhere in the process. Sure, they give us bits and pieces, but you have to go to other media outlets (foreign) to get a better idea of the "big picture". Put it all together & draw your own conclusions.


    Try checking out other sources like the BBC, ITAR/Tass (Russia), even the rhetoric from Al-Jazeera...Get a better idea of what is going on & see just how biased each news agency is... Then take it all in & piece it all together for yourself.


    As for "Secret CIA prisons" I think there IS a need for it.


    The problem is, nobody knows how to keep a damn secret anymore. The US needs the ability to detain and interrogate terrorists without the friggin' ACLU getting involved. There is no way of knowing how many lives have been saved due to information extracted from some of these pukes. And if a TERRORIST should "accidentally" meet a sticky end, so be it. One less to worry about.


    As far as addressing "prescreened audiences"... You will find that most, if not all heads of state prescreen to weed out possible threats, or others that seek to disrupt the event in any way they can. Believe it or not... Some people are just too immature or unstable to be trusted around a public figure.


    Don't get me wrong... I DON'T agree with everything Bush has done. I have openly criticized him about some things myself. I even post jokes about him sometimes. HE IS A POLITICIAN!


    But... He IS the President, and I accept that fact. In a few years, he won't be... Someone else will take over.


    Neo... Is is blatantly obvious that you actively HATE Bush... There is no denying that... I'm sure that there is nothing that anyone can say or do to change your often & not so eloquently expressed opinions about him... But, ain't the 1st ammendment wonderful? We have the right to express our opinions, and I for one enjoy the political debates in here... (Even the heated ones)


    The only thing I can suggest is to you is to ratchet it down a bit before you bust a blood vessel or something and wind up in a hospital or mental institution. :blah:


    (Better yet, just hit your bong & chill out a bit!)
     
  3. geheim

    geheim Excommunicated

    in in in in about 100 years they will find those WMD and say, well thats was when this guy saddam was in charge, then this guy george tried to clean it up, but just knocked the entire bucket of paint over, and the chinese came in wif some bad ass steam cleaners, and made it all nice again.


    but what happened to all dem wmds, they made some kind of machine that takes them in in in in space, but after they did that about 10 times, all the scientists said if you dont stop blowing up WMD in space, we are gonna have a really big problem, and the very next year, the entire earth was consumed in a huge cloud, turned out the cloud was the poisionius gas that was from the WMDs being destroyed.


    Now the only people that can live on earth are the people that have there own oxygen supply, so you better not worry a bout the tidal wave, probably need oxygen first.
     
  4. HazeNHydro420

    HazeNHydro420 Harvested Fat Sticky Bud

    This has nothing to do with this topic BUT I have yet to figure out why the hell you stutter when you type??? It just doesn't make any sense to me.


    PeAcE
     
  5. geheim

    geheim Excommunicated

    people we are going to do everything it takes to combat terrorism, now watch this drive.


    I only do itititit when im im im im nernernernervisssssssss


    you should hear me speak dutch when im nervous.


    (Edited by geheim at 1:17 pm on Dec. 21, 2005)
     
  6. mistical

    mistical Blazed and Confused

    ok i get it, geheim, your a heroin user yes?


    when your out of gear and cold turkeying you type as you feel


    kid me if ime wrong


    heroin addiction is not good, get some help mate


    good luck
     
  7. Jake

    Jake A Fat Sticky Bud

    Back to your last post Neo. "name one positive thing he (Bush) has done for Americans". I can't speak for anyone else but he's made me proud to be an American once again. After the 8 years of idiocy before him I honestly was ashamed to live here. Personally I agree with 90% of the Bush doctrine. Like him, hate him, at least you know where he stands. Having a President with character right or wrong is very refreshing. Sparky and some others we have very different opinions and I can respect yours also. At least you state your mind in an intelligent way. But this Neo kid. Holy crap when that little bastard gets old enough to vote he's gone be dangerous. For now I wish someone would get that youngster some Ridalin.
     
  8. fishman

    fishman Cured Fat Sticky Bud

    The inspectors were doing their work right before the war started. And they were saying there had not been wmd since '91. Bush told them to leave. No sarin and zero mustard gas were found. Nothing was found. Get your facts straight. All hail the sheeple! We're not at the end of the controversies yet. What scares me is the **** we don't know that he's doing.
     
  9. neobud

    neobud Begun Flowering

    QUOTE

    Quote: from Jake on 3:04 pm on Dec. 21, 2005
    Back to your last post Neo. "name one positive thing he (Bush) has done for Americans". I can't speak for anyone else but he's made me proud to be an American once again. After the 8 years of idiocy before him I honestly was ashamed to live here. Personally I agree with 90% of the Bush doctrine. Like him, hate him, at least you know where he stands. Having a President with character right or wrong is very refreshing. Sparky and some others we have very different opinions and I can respect yours also. At least you state your mind in an intelligent way. But this Neo kid. Holy crap when that little bastard gets old enough to vote he's gone be dangerous. For now I wish someone would get that youngster some Ridalin.

    Old enough to vote huh? How many Wars have you fought in PUNK?
     
  10. Jake

    Jake A Fat Sticky Bud

    You ain't going to fool me young man. I've been in and around the military all my life. I've never met anyone that served our country that acts like you. If you indeed did fight in a war it certainly wasn't on our side. Our service men have more respect and inteligence than you. I'd just go do your homework before Mom or Dad catch you on their computer visiting the "Pot Site".
     
  11. geheim

    geheim Excommunicated

    sorry to distract you there mystical. I am no way involved in heroin use, sales, negoiating, or even testing of that substance nor any other forms or heroin. and their precursurs.


    i grow weed and travel. I would never subject myself to needles, tin foil, or even methadone.


    I smoke weed, and no tabocco, zo wi zo is real mutherfucker.
     
  12. geheim

    geheim Excommunicated

    where the angry iraqi???


    i bet he went on holiday travel.
     
  13. Bong O Matic

    Bong O Matic A Fat Sticky Bud

    Me personally I am neither Democrat,nor Republican.I take after my old man,I would listen to the speeches they make,I cast my vote for G.Dubbya because I thought he was the lesser of two evils.He handeled everything well durring that 9/11 attacks.He sent troops into Iraq to find out why the hell this happened but I believe he couldn't just put on a piece of paper saying."I'm going to send troops into Iraq to see why the hell this happened." So he had to think up some better reason.So he looked to Saddam,Iraqi Dictator,a man who killed millions because they either didn't follow his beliefs and rules or because they didn't vote for him.If the troops hadn't went in to say."STOP BITCH!" There would still be a dictatorship over there.We are now trying to rebuild a country that has the power to become proporous.They have oil fields,they have jewl mines,but with the previous leader they weren't able to take full advantage of these in fear that they would be called out as treasonists and executed.Now this will be the last post I make under this topic because I don't feel like arguing.PeAcE
     
  14. snickelfritz

    snickelfritz Weed College Hall Monitor

    QUOTE

    Quote: from fishman on 5:11 pm on Dec. 21, 2005
    The inspectors were doing their work right before the war started. And they were saying there had not been wmd since '91. Bush told them to leave. No sarin and zero mustard gas were found. Nothing was found.  Get your facts straight. All hail the sheeple! We're not at the end of the controversies yet. What scares me is the **** we don't know that he's doing.

    Sorry to bust your bubble there fishman, but some WERE found...

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33082-2004May17.html
    Deadly Nerve Agent Sarin Is Found in Roadside Bomb
    Weapon Probably Not Part of a Stockpile, Experts Say
    By William Branigin and Joby Warrick
    Washington Post Staff Writers
    Tuesday, May 18, 2004; Page A14


    An artillery shell containing the nerve agent sarin exploded near a U.S. military convoy in Baghdad recently, releasing a small amount of the deadly chemical and slightly injuring two ordnance disposal experts, a top U.S. military official in Iraq said yesterday.


    The discovery of the nerve agent, reported yesterday by a team that has been searching for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq since shortly after last year's U.S.-led invasion, marked the first time the team has found one of the types of weapons that the Bush administration cited as initial justification for toppling the government of Saddam Hussein.

    But weapons experts cautioned that the shell appeared to predate the 1991 Persian Gulf War and did not necessarily mean that Hussein possessed hidden stockpiles of chemical munitions.

    Army Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, the chief U.S. military spokesman in Iraq, told reporters in Baghdad that the Iraq Survey Group confirmed yesterday that it had found a 155mm artillery shell containing sarin.

    Kimmitt said the round containing the nerve agent had been rigged as a roadside bomb, or improvised explosive device, but was discovered by a U.S. military convoy.

    "A detonation occurred before the IED could be rendered inoperable," Kimmitt said. "This produced a very small dispersal of agent. . . . Two explosive ordnance team members were treated for minor exposure to nerve agent as a result of the partial detonation of the round."

    He said the explosion occurred "in Baghdad a couple of days ago" and that he could not be more specific.

    Experts familiar with Iraq's chemical weapons program said the shell was likely a leftover from Hussein's pre-Gulf War stockpile. Iraq acknowledged producing nearly 800 tons of sarin and thousands of sarin-filled rockets and artillery shells between 1984 and 1990.

    The experts, including David Kay, the Pentagon's former top weapons hunter in Iraq, said the discovery did not conclusively prove the existence of stockpiles of concealed chemical and biological weapons.

    "The question is: Was it part of a cache that contains another ten or twenty of these, or is it one of a kind?" said Raymond Zilinskas, a former U.N. weapons inspector in Iraq and now director of the Chemical and Biological Weapons Nonproliferation Program at the Monterey Institute of International Studies in California. "We have no way of knowing the answer at this point."

    Kay, the former leader of the Iraq Survey Group, said the shell was likely one of thousands produced for the Iran-Iraq war. While the Hussein government claimed that all leftover chemical munitions had been destroyed in accordance with U.N. Security Council requirements, it is possible that some were overlooked, hidden or stolen. Before the U.S.-led invasion last year, U.N. weapons inspectors found several empty chemical warheads for rockets and a small number of artillery shells filled with mustard gas.

    "This shell may have been scavenged from one of the many munitions storage depots all over the country," said Kay. He said some munitions depots are still not adequately protected.

    In Washington, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld reacted cautiously to the news, saying he preferred to wait for further testing before commenting on the significance of the discovery.

    "We have to be careful," he said during an appearance at the Heritage Foundation in Washington. "We can't say something that's inaccurate." He said investigators have to track down the origin of the artillery shell and "figure out . . . what caused that to be there in this improvised explosive device and what might it mean in terms of the risks to our forces, the risks to other people and any other implications that one might draw."
    Kimmitt said the chemical shell was "an old binary type requiring the mixing of two chemical components in separate sections of the cell before the deadly agent is produced." He said the shell, which reportedly was not marked as a chemical round, was designed to work as such a weapon after being fired from an artillery piece, which would cause two chemicals to mix together in flight. But he said the mixing and dispersal of the sarin when the shell is used as a roadside bomb "is very limited."
    He noted that "the former regime had declared all such rounds destroyed before the 1991 Gulf War."

    It was not immediately clear who had planted the bomb or whether the perpetrators had known that the artillery shell contained a nerve agent.

    Kimmitt said he believed that whoever rigged the shell as a roadside bomb did not know it contained chemicals. He said the bomb was "virtually ineffective as a chemical weapon."

    Kimmitt said he would leave it to the Iraq Survey Group to determine whether the discovery of the sarin in the artillery shell represents confirmation that Hussein possessed stockpiles of chemical weapons. The 1,200-member Iraq Survey Group had not previously found any of the weapons of mass destruction that U.S. intelligence said Hussein was hiding, although the team found evidence of "program activities" related to such weapons.

    Sarin, a liquid nerve agent, causes convulsions, paralysis and asphyxiation. It reportedly was used by Hussein against Iranian forces in the Iran-Iraq war in the 1980s and against Iraqi Kurdish civilians.

    Kimmitt said the area in Baghdad where the artillery shell exploded was minimally affected because the binary chemicals that produce the sarin "were not allowed to mix." He said there were "very, very small traces" of the nerve agent as a result of the detonation and that personnel involved in explosive ordnance disposal went to the site and later "showed some minor indications of nerve poisoning." But the exposure was so minor that they were later released, and the area did not need to be decontaminated, he said.

    "It was a weapon that we believe was stocked from the ex-regime time, and it had been thought to be an ordinary artillery shell set up to explode like an ordinary IED," Kimmitt said.

    .........................................................



    By Kenneth R. Timmerman
    © 2004 Insight/News World Communications Inc.
    http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38213

    New evidence out of Iraq suggests the U.S. effort to track down Saddam Hussein's missing weapons of mass destruction is having better success than is being reported.

    Key assertions by the intelligence community widely judged in the media and by critics of President Bush as having been false are turning out to have been true after all.

    But this stunning news has received little attention from the major media, and the president's critics continue to insist that "no weapons" have been found.

    In virtually every case -- chemical, biological, nuclear and ballistic missiles -- the United States has found the weapons and the programs that the Iraqi dictator successfully concealed for 12 years from U.N. weapons inspectors.

    The Iraq Survey Group, ISG, whose intelligence analysts are managed by Charles Duelfer, a former State Department official and deputy chief of the U.N.-led arms-inspection teams, has found "hundreds of cases of activities that were prohibited" under U.N. Security Council resolutions, a senior administration official tells Insight.

    "There is a long list of charges made by the U.S. that have been confirmed, but none of this seems to mean anything because the weapons that were unaccounted for by the United Nations remain unaccounted for."

    Both Duelfer and his predecessor, David Kay, reported to Congress that the evidence they had found on the ground in Iraq showed Saddam's regime was in "material violation" of U.N. Security Council Resolution 1441, the last of 17 resolutions that promised "serious consequences" if Iraq did not make a complete disclosure of its weapons programs and dismantle them in a verifiable manner.

    The United States cited Iraq's refusal to comply with these demands as one justification for going to war.

    Both Duelfer and Kay found Iraq had "a clandestine network of laboratories and safe houses with equipment that was suitable to continuing its prohibited chemical- and biological-weapons [bW] programs," the official said. "They found a prison laboratory where we suspect they tested biological weapons on human subjects."

    They found equipment for "uranium-enrichment centrifuges" whose only plausible use was as part of a clandestine nuclear-weapons program. In all these cases, "Iraqi scientists had been told before the war not to declare their activities to the U.N. inspectors," the official said.

    But while the president's critics and the media might plausibly hide behind ambiguity and a lack of sensational-looking finds for not reporting some discoveries, in the case of Saddam's ballistic-missile programs they have no excuse for their silence.

    "Where were the missiles? We found them," another senior administration official told Insight.

    "Saddam Hussein's prohibited missile programs are as close to a slam dunk as you will ever find for violating United Nations resolutions," the first official said. Both senior administration officials spoke to Insight on condition that neither their name nor their agency be identified, but their accounts of what the United States has found in Iraq coincided in every major area.

    When former weapons inspector Kay reported to Congress in January that the United States had found "no stockpiles" of forbidden weapons in Iraq, his conclusions made front-page news. But when he detailed what the ISG had found in testimony before the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence last October, few took notice.

    Among Kay's revelations, which officials tell Insight have been amplified in subsequent inspections in recent weeks:


    A prison laboratory complex that may have been used for human testing of BW agents and "that Iraqi officials working to prepare the U.N. inspections were explicitly ordered not to declare to the U.N." Why was Saddam interested in testing biological-warfare agents on humans if he didn't have a biological-weapons program?

    "Reference strains" of a wide variety of biological-weapons agents were found beneath the sink in the home of a prominent Iraqi BW scientist. "We thought it was a big deal," a senior administration official said. "But it has been written off [by the press] as a sort of 'starter set.'"

    New research on BW-applicable agents, brucella and Congo-Crimean hemorrhagic fever, and continuing work on ricin and aflatoxin that were not declared to the United Nations.

    A line of unmanned aerial vehicles, UAVs, or drones, "not fully declared at an undeclared production facility and an admission that they had tested one of their declared UAVs out to a range of 500 kilometers [311 miles], 350 kilometers [217 miles] beyond the permissible limit."

    "Continuing covert capability to manufacture fuel propellant useful only for prohibited Scud-variant missiles, a capability that was maintained at least until the end of 2001 and that cooperating Iraqi scientists have said they were told to conceal from the U.N."

    "Plans and advanced design work for new long-range missiles with ranges up to at least 1,000 kilometers [621 miles] -- well beyond the 150-kilometer-range limit [93 miles] imposed by the U.N. Missiles of a 1,000-kilometer range would have allowed Iraq to threaten targets throughout the Middle East, including Ankara [Turkey], Cairo [Egypt] and Abu Dhabi [united Arab Emirates]."
    In addition, through interviews with Iraqi scientists, seized documents and other evidence, the ISG learned the Iraqi government had made "clandestine attempts between late 1999 and 2002 to obtain from North Korea technology related to 1,300-kilometer-range [807 miles] ballistic missiles -- probably the No Dong -- 300-kilometer-range [186 miles] antiship cruise missiles and other prohibited military equipment," Kay reported.

    In testimony before Congress on March 30, Duelfer, revealed the ISG had found evidence of a "crash program" to construct new plants capable of making chemical- and biological-warfare agents.

    The ISG also found a previously undeclared program to build a "high-speed rail gun," a device apparently designed for testing nuclear-weapons materials. That came in addition to 500 tons of natural uranium stockpiled at Iraq's main declared nuclear site south of Baghdad, which International Atomic Energy Agency spokesman Mark Gwozdecky acknowledged to Insight had been intended for "a clandestine nuclear-weapons program."

    In taking apart Iraq's clandestine procurement network, Duelfer said his investigators had discovered that "the primary source of illicit financing for this system was oil smuggling conducted through government-to-government protocols negotiated with neighboring countries [and] from kickback payments made on contracts set up through the U.N. oil-for-food program."

    What the president's critics and the media widely have portrayed as the most dramatic failure of the U.S. case against Saddam has been the claimed failure to find "stockpiles" of chemical and biological weapons. But in a June 2003 Washington Post op-ed, former chief U.N. weapons inspector Rolf Ekeus called such criticism "a distortion and a trivialization of a major threat to international peace and security."

    The October 2002 National Intelligence Estimate on Iraqi Weapons of Mass Destruction concluded that Saddam "probably has stocked at least 100 metric tons [MT] and possibly as much as 500 MT of CW [chemical warfare] agents -- much of it added in the last year."

    That assessment was based, in part, on conclusions contained in the final report from U.N. weapons inspectors in 1999, which highlighted discrepancies in what the Iraqis reported to the United Nations and the amount of precursor chemicals U.N. arms inspectors could document Iraq had imported but for which it no longer could account.

    Until now, Bush's critics say, no stockpiles of CW agents made with those precursors have been found. The snap conclusion they draw is that the administration "lied" to the American people to create a pretext for invading Iraq.

    But what are "stockpiles" of CW agents supposed to look like? Was anyone seriously expecting Saddam to have left behind freshly painted warehouses packed with chemical munitions, all neatly laid out in serried rows, with labels written in English?

    Or did they think that a captured Saddam would guide U.S. troops to smoking vats full of nerve gas in an abandoned factory?

    Stockpiles found

    In fact, as recent evidence made public by a former operations officer for the Coalition Provisional Authority's intelligence unit in Iraq shows, some of those stockpiles have been found - not all at once, and not all in nice working order -- but found all the same.

    Douglas Hanson was a U.S. Army cavalry reconnaissance officer for 20 years, and a veteran of Gulf War I. He was an atomic demolitions munitions security officer and a nuclear, biological and chemical defense officer. As a civilian analyst in Iraq last summer, he worked for an operations intelligence unit of the CPA in Iraq, and later, with the newly formed Ministry of Science and Technology, which was responsible for finding new, nonlethal employment for Iraqi WMD scientists.

    In an interview with Insight and in an article he wrote for the online magazine AmericanThinker.com, Hanson examines reports from U.S. combat units and public information confirming that many of Iraq's CW stockpiles have indeed been found.

    Until now, however, journalists have devoted scant attention to this evidence, in part because it contradicts the story line they have been putting forward since the U.S.-led inspections began after the war.

    But another reason for the media silence may stem from the seemingly undramatic nature of the "finds" Hanson and others have described. The materials that constitute Saddam's chemical-weapons "stockpiles" look an awful lot like pesticides, which they indeed resemble.

    "Pesticides are the key elements in the chemical-agent arena," Hanson says. "In fact, the general pesticide chemical formula (organophosphate) is the 'grandfather' of modern-day nerve agents."

    The United Nations was fully aware that Saddam had established his chemical-weapons plants under the guise of a permitted civilian chemical-industry infrastructure. Plants inspected in the early 1990s as CW production facilities had been set up to appear as if they were producing pesticides, or in the case of a giant plant near Fallujah, chlorine, which is used to produce mustard gas.

    When coalition forces entered Iraq, "huge warehouses and caches of 'commercial and agricultural' chemicals were seized and painstakingly tested by Army and Marine chemical specialists," Hanson writes. "What was surprising was how quickly the ISG refuted the findings of our ground forces and how silent they have been on the significance of these caches."

    Caches of "commercial and agricultural" chemicals don't match the expectation of "stockpiles" of chemical weapons. But, in fact, that is precisely what they are. "At a very minimum," Hanson tells Insight, "they were storing the precursors to restart a chemical-warfare program very quickly."

    Kay and Duelfer came to a similar conclusion, telling Congress under oath that Saddam had built new facilities and stockpiled the materials to relaunch production of chemical and biological weapons at a moment's notice. At Karbala, U.S. troops stumbled upon 55-gallon drums of pesticides at what appeared to be a very large "agricultural supply" area, Hanson says. Some of the drums were stored in a "camouflaged bunker complex" that was shown to reporters -- with unpleasant results.

    "More than a dozen soldiers, a Knight-Ridder reporter, a CNN cameraman, and two Iraqi POWs came down with symptoms consistent with exposure to a nerve agent," Hanson says. "But later ISG tests resulted in a proclamation of negative, end of story, nothing to see here, etc., and the earlier findings and injuries dissolved into nonexistence. Left unexplained is the small matter of the obvious pains taken to disguise the cache of ostensibly legitimate pesticides. One wonders about the advantage an agricultural-commodities business gains by securing drums of pesticide in camouflaged bunkers 6 feet underground. The 'agricultural site' was also colocated with a military ammunition dump -- evidently nothing more than a coincidence in the eyes of the ISG."

    That wasn't the only significant find by coalition troops of probable CW stockpiles, Hanson believes. Near the northern Iraqi town of Bai'ji, where Saddam had built a chemical-weapons plant known to the United States from nearly 12 years of inspections, elements of the 4th Infantry Division found 55-gallon drums containing a substance identified through mass spectrometry analysis as cyclosarin -- a nerve agent.

    Nearby were surface-to-surface and surface-to-air missiles, gas masks and a mobile laboratory that could have been used to mix chemicals at the site.

    "Of course, later tests by the experts revealed that these were only the ubiquitous pesticides that everybody was turning up," Hanson says. "It seems Iraqi soldiers were obsessed with keeping ammo dumps insect-free, according to the reading of the evidence now enshrined by the conventional wisdom that 'no WMD stockpiles have been discovered.'"

    At Taji -- an Iraqi weapons complex as large as the District of Columbia -- U.S. combat units discovered more "pesticides" stockpiled in specially built containers, smaller in diameter but much longer than the standard 55-gallon drum.

    Hanson says he still recalls the military sending digital images of the canisters to his office, where his boss at the Ministry of Science and Technology translated the Arabic-language markings. "They were labeled as pesticides," he says. "Gee, you sure have got a lot of pesticides stored in ammo dumps."

    Again, this January, Danish forces found 120-millimeter mortar shells filled with a mysterious liquid that initially tested positive for blister agents. But subsequent tests by the United States disputed that finding.

    "If it wasn't a chemical agent, what was it?" Hanson asks. "More pesticides? Dish-washing detergent? From this old soldier's perspective, I gain nothing from putting a liquid in my mortar rounds unless that stuff will do bad things to the enemy."

    The discoveries Hanson describes are not dramatic. And that's the problem: Finding real stockpiles in grubby ammo dumps doesn't fit the image the media and the president's critics carefully have fed to the public of what Iraq's weapons ought to look like. A senior administration official who has gone through the intelligence reporting from Iraq as well as the earlier reports from U.N. arms inspectors refers to another well-documented allegation.

    "The Iraqis admitted they had made 3.9 tons of VX," a powerful nerve gas, but claimed they had never weaponized it. The U.N. inspectors "felt they had more. But where did it go?" The Iraqis never provided any explanation of what had happened to their VX stockpiles.

    What does 3.9 tons of VX look like? "It could fit in one large garage," the official says. Assuming, of course, that Saddam would assemble every bit of VX gas his scientists had produced at a single site, that still amounts to one large garage in an area the size of the state of California.

    Senior administration officials stress that the investigation will continue as inspectors comb through millions of pages of documents in Iraq and attempt to interview Iraqi weapons scientists who have been trained all their professional lives to conceal their activities from the outside world.

    "The conditions under which the ISG is working are not very conducive," one official said. "But this president wants the truth to come out. This is not an exercise in spinning or censoring."

    ...........................................................

    http://boortz.com/nuze/200508/08292005.html
    WMD FOUND IN IRAQ

    The media is fond of reminding us that no Weapons of Mass Destruction were ever found in Iraq.  This has been the clarion call of the Democrats for a couple of years now.  However, did you know that WMD were found in Iraq?  Not just a couple...but lots of them.  A  mother who lost her son in Iraq was interviewed on Fox News had this to say:  "I have seen photos of entire fighter jets buried in the sand.  I have seen pictures of entire caches of weapons that just my son's unit would uncover." I wonder why we never hear much about that one? Here's also a nice little list of what was found:

    -500 tons...that's right...TONS...make that 1million pounds of yellow cake uranium.  It was found at Saddam's nuclear weapons facility (yup...he had one of those too.)

    -1.8 tons of partially enriched uranium found at the same place. You know, the stuff you need to make nukes.

    -Hidden centrifuge parts and blueprints.

    -Two dozen artillery shells loaded with Sarin and mustard gas.

    Sounds like WMD to me! You may want to print this off and impress your friends with your knowledge.








    To shorten this post, here are some more links you can go to.

    http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/005207.php
    http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/6/25/114037.shtml
    http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraq/0,,2-10-1460_1528363,00.html


    These are just a few of many.
    Now, I'm sure you will do a "google" & find a shitload of sites that will say just the opposite.
     
  15. georged5150

    georged5150 Cured Fat Sticky Bud

    QUOTE

    Quote: from fishman on 3:11 pm on Dec. 21, 2005
    The inspectors were doing their work right before the war started. And they were saying there had not been wmd since '91. Bush told them to leave. No sarin and zero mustard gas were found. Nothing was found.  Get your facts straight. All hail the sheeple! We're not at the end of the controversies yet. What scares me is the **** we don't know that he's doing.

    LOL Bush told them to leave...LOL Thats the best one I have heard in a long time.
     
  16. fishman

    fishman Cured Fat Sticky Bud

    Georg- that's because you don't read. The inspectors were in there right up to the war. That's why everyone in here thinks you are silly. The talk comes out of your ass instead of from real sources.


    Snickel- The article you just posted ays "But weapons experts cautioned that the shell appeared to predate the 1991 Persian Gulf War and did not necessarily mean that Hussein possessed hidden stockpiles of chemical munitions."


    C'mon bro. Quit looking at one sentence at a time and read the whole article. Sarin could have been brought in from anywhere. Iran maybe? Syria maybe? Nobodies arguing that saddam never had them. But like you article said it was probably a left over from trhe Iran-Iraq war. One shell out of the tons he was supposed to have is nothing. That is hardly a justification. It also says that it probably came from a weapons depot we should have been guarding. You're also posting an article from over 1 1/2 years ago. If there was a stockpile don't you think more would have been used by now. Quit spinning dude and put **** into context. Your team is failing bad. It's time to enter reality and admit to it.


    Here ya go George. From 3-18-2003. Less than a week before the war started. Open mouth insert foot.


    BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- The United Nations on Tuesday began evacuating its expatriate staff from Baghdad, flying out dozens of weapons inspectors who have been looking for evidence of weapons of mass destruction since late last year.


    The first group left Saddam International Airport around 10:30 a.m. (2:30 a.m. EST), an airport official told CNN, and arrived a short time later in Larnaca, Cyprus.


    The inspectors were ordered out of Iraq ahead of a possible U.S. attack. Their departure is believed to be the first of several waves of evacuations.


    "The job is unfinished, but up to now, we have done our part," said Hiro Ueki, a U.N. spokesman, at the airport. "We feel that we have received a good amount of cooperation from the Iraqis. They did facilitate our inspection activities [but] there are still some areas where we need fuller cooperation."


    Before the evacuation began, there were 134 international staff in Baghdad, including 60 inspectors from the U.N. Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission (UNMOVIC) and the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA). The rest are humanitarian workers.


    The planes are expected to make several trips to Cyprus in order to evacuate all the workers.


    It's not clear if the United Nations will evacuate its Iraqi staff.


    --CNN Correspondent Rym Brahimi contributed to this report
     
  17. snickelfritz

    snickelfritz Weed College Hall Monitor

    Fish... I did read the articles...Lengthy as they were... I love the facts that these so-called "experts" are trying to debunk everything.


    I was merely pointing out that some were found... But just not in the quantities predicted... And does it matter how old the shells are? They still existed!  They were still deadly!


    I personally have no idea about where they are located or from what time frame they originated... Why should it matter though? If they exist, they exist.


    I do find it quite odd though that so-called "agricultural pesticides" were kept in camoflaged underground bunkers in specialized, non commercial containers... At or next to munitions dumps!!


    When those chemicals are mixed together in the right proportions, you get nerve agent.


    There were also tons of precursor chemicals that when mixed properly could produce mustard gas, blood agents and blister agents... Not to mention found missiles that "supposedly" never existed... With range capabilities that placed them on the U.N. banned weapons list.


    Then there were those fighter jets that were "buried" intact in the desert... That went unreported to any inspectors...


    "That ain't my bag of dope, I don't know how it got in my coat pocket!"


    "Gee officer, just because I have a stockpile of fertilizer, diesel fuel, and acetylene here don't mean that I'm going to build a bomb!


    Ryder truck? Uh, what truck?"


    We could debate this **** until our fingers bleed... Bottom line, Saddam DID have WMD. How do I know this? Because WE fucking gave them to him! (Reagan) Along with the technological capabilities to manufacture his own... Back when he was fighting Iran.


    Saddam was also obtaining **** from Russia, China, France and Germany.


    Why do you think that those countries were so opposed to the war? Because their hands were in the cookie jar!


    People are quick to shout "Liar liar pants on fire!" especially if it directed towards a politician whose political views differ from our own.


    The weapons inspectors were "escorted" everywhere they went... The Iraqis knew where they were going, and when they would be there... They were playing a deadly version of the shell game... Always "palming" the pea.


    In each "inspection" the Iraqis had ample time to clean out any evidence...  Any WMD could have been easily buried in the middle of nowhere, or trucked into "Baathist" Syria.


    Hell, If you knew the cops were coming to your house with a search warrant... Would you break down your grow op & hide ur **** somewhere, or let 'em just come on in & bust ya?


    Uh, huh... That's what I thought.


    The real truth is... WE WILL NEVER KNOW THE TRUTH!


    We can't trust the government or the media to tell us the complete truth... Therefore all of this is just more "comspiracy theory" crap.


    It is, has been and will always be a "**** 'em & feed 'em fish heads" mentality. (No pun intended Fish)No matter who is in office... There will always be secrets and misinformation.


    Every government is guilty of lying to it's people about something.


    Peace
     
  18. georged5150

    georged5150 Cured Fat Sticky Bud

    Fish


    The weapons inspectors were there. But they were not allowed to inspect at certain places. Like you can look here but not over there. NOW What?[​IMG] Are you remembering the facts now? [​IMG]


    (Edited by georged5150 at 8:46 pm on Dec. 22, 2005)
     
  19. StashDaCash

    StashDaCash Latae Sententiae Excommunication

    People are SOOO quick to jump on the bush bashin bandwagon.....Quit recycling what you see in the liberal media and expecting everyone to think your intelligent.. For fucks sake every post against bush sounds exactly the same..
     
  20. fishman

    fishman Cured Fat Sticky Bud

    Stash every post for Bush sounds the same. Try offering up a post of substance instead of Ann Coulters talking ponts.


    Georgie porgie- The inspectors said there were no wmd and they were right. No way around that my man. You said they weren't there at all.


    Snickel-Using an argument involving one faulty artillery shell is laughable. Bush and his guys said there was tens of thousands of tons. Bush has admitted he was wrong. So if he was right why wouldn't he say he was right? Maybe because he knows your arguement is just as lame as I think it is. Face facts. The pres has. His intelligence was wrong.


    You guys will say anything to make your side right. Even though the pres himself has taken some responsibility. Even though his supporters in the congress are scattering away from him like dust in the wind. Four repubs helped to filibuster the patriot act. Hell he doesn't even need a spin machine anymore. He doesn't need Karl Rove. He has gotten all of you to do the spinning for him. It must be in the subliminal messages Fox News puts into their graphics.
     

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