Operation Iraqi Forced Freedom

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Professor ChumLeaf, Mar 5, 2005.

  1. Professor ChumLeaf

    Professor ChumLeaf A Fat Sticky Bud

    Updated: 11:00 AM EST
    U.S. to Probe Shooting of Freed Hostage in Iraq
    Italian Agent Killed, Reporter Wounded by Troops
    By PATRICK QUINN, AP

     

     
    ROME (March 5) - Draped in a blanket and apparently hooked up to an intravenous drip, former hostage Giuliana Sgrena returned home from Iraq on Saturday, hours after American troops fired on the car taking her to Baghdad's airport, wounding her. The Italian intelligence officer who negotiated her freedom was hit by the gunfire and died in her arms.

    President Bush promised a full investigation into the shooting.

    Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi greeted Sgrena after she was carried off her plane at Rome's Ciampino Airport following her release from a month of captivity. Surrounded by relatives and military police, Sgrena, a 56-year-old journalist with the newspaper Il Manifesto, was taken in an ambulance to a military clinic for an operation on her collarbone.

    A blanket was wrapped around her shoulders, and she appeared to be hooked up to an intravenous drip.

    Her brother, Ivan Sgrena, told reporters she was very happy to be back in Italy but was ''very sorry and sad'' about the death of intelligence officer Nicola Calipari, who Berlusconi said was killed when he threw himself over Sgrena to protect her from U.S. fire.

    From the hospital, Giuliana Sgrena told Rai News 24 by telephone that ''we thought the danger was over after my rescue.''

    ''And instead, suddenly there was this shooting. We were hit by a spray of fire,'' she told the television network. ''I was talking to Nicola ... when he leaned over me, probably to defend me, and then he slumped over. That was a truly terrible thing.''

    Pier Scolari, the journalist's boyfriend, said she told him: ''The most difficult moment was when I saw the person who had saved me die in my arms,'' according to the ANSA news agency. Calipari was to be awarded a posthumous medal of valor, officials said.

     
    A Hostage's Ordeal  
     
     
     
     
    Gabriele Polo, her editor, said Berlusconi told him: ''It was a terrible night, we will remember it for all our lives.''

    ''She's been through a trial, but she's alive. Finally, we've gotten to see her,'' said her father, Franco.

    Scolari said Sgrena was doing ''relatively well.''

    She was abducted Feb. 4 by gunmen who blocked her car outside Baghdad University. Last month, she was shown in a video pleading for her life and demanding that all foreign troops - including Italian forces - leave Iraq.

    Sgrena told colleagues from Il Manifesto, who met her plane, that her captors ''never treated me badly,'' ANSA reported.

    The shooting came as a blow to Berlusconi, who has kept 3,000 troops in Iraq despite widespread public opposition in Italy to the U.S.-led war. Sgrena's left-leaning newspaper vigorously opposed the conflict.

    One of Italy's communist parties organized a protest Saturday outside the U.S. consulate in Milan. About 50 people waved rainbow peace flags and handed out leaflets that read, ''Shame on you, Bush.''

    Italy's foreign minister said he hoped Calipari's death would not spark an anti-American backlash. ''That would be the most underhanded way of marking the memory of this hero,'' Gianfranco Fini told Corriere della Sera newspaper.

    Friday's shooting occurred shortly after Sgrena was released from a month in captivity. She left Iraq after being discharged from a U.S. military hospital in Baghdad.

    The U.S. military said the car Sgrena was riding in after her release was speeding as it approached a coalition checkpoint in western Baghdad on its way to the airport. Soldiers shot into the engine block only after trying to warn the driver to stop by ''hand and arm signals, flashing white lights and firing warning shots,'' the military said.

    U.S. troops took Sgrena to an American military hospital in Iraq, where shrapnel was removed from her left shoulder. The shrapnel removed from Sgrena's shoulder may have been a fragment of the fire that killed Calipari, he said.

    News of the shooting drew criticism Friday from Berlusconi's political foes, who were eager to attack the government for its staunch support of the war.

    ''Another victim of an absurd war,'' Alfonso Pecoraro Scanio, leader of the Green Party, told the Apcom news agency.

    Berlusconi summoned the U.S. ambassador to Rome, Mel Sembler, who met with the premier for about an hour.

    ''The United States will continue to provide all necessary assistance,'' Sembler said in a statement, expressing condolences to Calipari's family and wishing the wounded a quick recovery. ''And we are working with our Italian allies as we fully investigate the circumstances of this tragedy.''

    Bush called Berlusconi and expressed his regret in a five-minute conversation, White House spokesman Scott McClellan said Friday night. Bush then assured Berlusconi the shooting would be ''fully investigated,'' he said.

    Pope John Paul II sent two messages of condolences, one to Berlusconi and another to Calipari's family, the Vatican said.

    The pope said he was ''saddened at the tragic death'' of Calipari, and called him a ''faithful and heroic servant of the state, who, in carrying out the delicate mission that had been given to him, didn't hesitate to sacrifice his life.''


    03/05/05 10:52 ET

    Copyright 2005 The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press. All active hyperlinks have been inserted by AOL.



      Byproducts of an absurd, unnecessary, illegitimate, illegal war. Investigations do not and cannot bring life back to the dead...

    (Edited by Professor ChumLeaf at 11:23 am on Mar. 5, 2005)
     
  2. SD

    SD Cured Fat Sticky Bud

    Dont forget to place your 'civilian death bet' PC. We have single handedly made Saddams killing machine look docile war in the last 2 years with:


    Iraqi Freedom(TM.) 'the fresh saver!':cheese:


    Get your 'Iraqi Freedom'(TM.) dolls at Wal mart for only $29.95 PC!


    They make a wonderful holiday gift I know damn well all the Iraqi Civilians will be placing them under their Democratic Christmas trees this year.


    Ohhhhh yeah but thats right only those civilians with children who havent been run down by the United States militaries 'Freedom Machine' will have them...well thats OK PC(again their not OUR children dieing in the name of Freedom) and Im sure those Iraqi Civilians with no causualties in the immediate family will certainly have them this year...


    God Bless America!


    Does Hypocrisy come to mind PC? Maybe gross misuse of power....
     
  3. Professor ChumLeaf

    Professor ChumLeaf A Fat Sticky Bud

    All of the above, I would get my wager in, but hate to place a losing bet...mama always told me, stupid is as stupid does, so if it's not a sure thing don't bet on it...I would be better off pissing in the wind...lol...have you had any other takers or tokers on your wager offer?...I know it didn't look like it...
     
  4. nobogart

    nobogart Cured Fat Sticky Bud

    the exact point.......its not our civilians dieing......
     
  5. SFC

    SFC Latae Sententiae Excommunication

    If you don't want to face possible death by kidnapper,or by running road blocks to get shot, then don't go to Iraq. What kind of stupid **** tries to run a roadblock in Iraq. Especially a military checkpoint. I have a hard time feeling sorry for such an asinine decision.
     
  6. Professor ChumLeaf

    Professor ChumLeaf A Fat Sticky Bud

    SFC,


    Don't mind if I do here, that is rain on your presumptious parade.


    First off, were you in that car. Uh no, and second of all, do you know for fact that it was speeding, Uh, no. Thirdly, apparently you haven't been paying attention to the followup reports on the investigation into this crime.


    I might add here, that I earlier had pointed out that an investigation cannot breathe life into a corpse, however, an investigation can uncover the truth. And from the way this is unfolding, SFC...prepare to eat your socks, hope they are mint flavored.


    Reports in thus far, have stated that the car was not speeding. This gal, the Italian journalist, has made it clear that, their car being shot at was a complete surprise to her, because they were on their way to the airport, and coalition forces were aware of this...could it be, and this is speculation thus far on my account, but media reports would substantiate it, she is a journalist for a leftist-leaning publication, and already there is suspicion by the Italian government that she knew something that the coalition forces were not about to let her report...I smell a conspiracy here, and Mr. Bush got some serious-ass splainin' to do...


    And this reminds me, I was going to start another thread...in regards to the possible pending pullout of Italy's 3,000 troops over this latest coalition forces fuckup...I think I will title it, As The Coalition Crumbles...yes, that will fit nicely, right next to Operation Iraqi Forced Freedom...


    Hey SFC, to you I offer a bit of advice...before you jump to unwarranted conclusions, perhaps you should smoke a bowl...works for me...lol...take care fellow, GKer... ;)
     
  7. Tiberon

    Tiberon Latae Sententiae Excommunication

    Ok daze...if your gonna **** on our troops you better god damn well tell the other side of the story.


    One, she was on the most dangerous highway in Iraq, Baghdad international airport road. Its were most of our troops AND IRAQIS have been attacked.


    Two, the car was warned to stop. Not only by waving and yelling but they also fired warning shots over the car.


    When it still didnt stop the put a .50 cal through the engine block. And finally when it made its last attempt to speed up and get through the road block....our boys unloaded in the car.


    Now put yourself in the shoes of our boys sittin in their abrahms who have had countless suicide attacks by speeding vehicles comin at em. They did what they could to halt the vehicle before the lambasted it with bullets. I say they did what they were told.


    There is no pause button here....we cant stop a vehicle and inspect it everytime one comes chargin. These guys are in a warzone and they have to make split second decisions.


    What do you expect?


    And ill agree with SFC. What did they expect trying to run a road block....unarmed soldiers holding stop signs?


    puh-leeeze
     
  8. SFC

    SFC Latae Sententiae Excommunication

    Daze your hate for the current administration has made you blind.If we were going to assinate people you wouldn't have evidence on the front page, and there would NOT be survivors. That seems to shoot a big whole in your theory my friend.
     
  9. SD

    SD Cured Fat Sticky Bud

    Good points made by all. Dont speed through a check point where soldiers with nerves on high(understandably so) are forced to patrol...


    At the same time, if youre being shot at by .50 calibre weapons while driving, in a state of panic(fearing for your life in other words) what do you do?


    when are we(the United states) going to realize the Iraqi civilians and others who have been riddled with bullets since the onset of this war speed up when theyre being 'shot at' because theyre trying to get away! Civilians and others dont make the most rational decisions when theyre being shot at, because they arent military trained.


    lets face it this war is getting out of hand, has been out of hand for some time now. There is no control... its Vietnam part 2.
     
  10. Tiberon

    Tiberon Latae Sententiae Excommunication

    At the same time, if youre being shot at by .50 calibre weapons while driving, in a state of panic(fearing for your life in other words) what do you do?


    You stop
     
  11. SD

    SD Cured Fat Sticky Bud

    Thats great in theory. Thats not how all people react when their being shot at though. Some peoples natural instinct is to flee when theyre fearing for their lives.
     
  12. SFC

    SFC Latae Sententiae Excommunication

    Well then. Natural instinct will damn sure get you killed. Won't it? Vietnam was 30 years ago.In southeast asia. This is Iraq. Middle east.
     
  13. SD

    SD Cured Fat Sticky Bud

    When a foreign country invades the United States and YOUR innocent family members(children, wife, mother) are killed due to that foreign militaries invasion and mistakes....then you come back here and tell me how fantastic war is... until then save it.
     
  14. SFC

    SFC Latae Sententiae Excommunication

    Hypothetical scenario's aren't going to change my mind. Probably won't change yours either.
     
  15. SD

    SD Cured Fat Sticky Bud

    Of course they wont it would take your child or wife dieing in your arms for that to happen.
     
  16. Professor ChumLeaf

    Professor ChumLeaf A Fat Sticky Bud

      The most current update I have on this news event is that Italy is still adamantly requesting a full investigation by Bush's Fright House. Why? Because the conflicting reports so starkly contrast one another...to bring ya' all up to speed...


     The U.S. is still claiming there was a checkpoint breached...and that they tried persistently without success to arm and hand signal the oncoming car to get it to stop...when that allegedly did not work...they allegedly fired warning shots from their guns into the air...and allegedly when that didn't work, they tried shooting into the engine block, and finally after exhausting all other options...they fired into the car...that is the U.S.'s explanation for this tragedy...seems the story on the Italians side is quite different...


    The reports thus far taken from interviews of the 3 surviving people in the car...is that 1. They were not speeding towards the checkpoint. 2. They are alleging there was not an official checkpoint, but rather a coupla of humvees parked alongside the road...3. And finally they allege that the minute their car came under fire...they seen flashes, and the driver stopped immediately...


     All I can add here is this...I smell something phishy...really phishy...someone is obviously not telling the truth...more at 11...


    (Edited by Professor ChumLeaf at 4:07 pm on Mar. 10, 2005)
     
  17. Professor ChumLeaf

    Professor ChumLeaf A Fat Sticky Bud

    I thought it would be thought provoking to understand more fully what the occupation of Iraq has created in terms of the ol' adage..."Where the ends justifies the means", and the dangers inherent to a mentality of that nature. So in this thread again, I will bring controversial matters to the forefront...here I bring admittedly so, a cherry-picked segment from Seymour M. Hersh's "Chain of Command":


    In their dealings with outsiders about prison abuse, White House officials had a ready explanation: Someone in the military didn't get the message. In late may 2004, as the world was awash in the news from Abu Ghraib, Kenneth Roth, the executive director of Human Rights Watch, had a second disheartening meeting with Rice and John Bellinger, the N.S.C. attorney. The problem, Rice made clear, according to Roth's notes, was not the President's policies, which explicitly ruled out such abuse, but the "implementation of policy. There's obvious confusion in the military," Rice told Roth. "There's a need to clarify whether there's a need for better training, and there must be accountability"-not in the White House, again, but inside the military. "The military leadership," Rice added, "needs to learn where the breakdown was."


    Torture, as the White House defined it, was not an option, the President had said, but Rice refused to be drawn into a discussion about what other interrogation techniques could be out of bounds. "The Administration can't overthrow the whole detention and interrogation facility," Rice said, according to Roth's notes.


    "To this day," Roth said in late July 2004, "they cling to the fiction that there is a realm of coercion that does not violate the international prohibition against torture. Until the administration formally abandons all forms of coercive interrogation, it is inviting the abuse that has become standard fare since September 11th."


    Earlier, Roth had told me, "In an odd way, the sexual abuses at Abu Ghraib have become a diversion for the prisoner abuse and the violation of the Geneva Conventions that is authorized." Since September 11th, Roth added, the military has systematically used third-degree techniques around the world on detainees. "Some JAGs hate this and are horrified that the tolerance of mistreatment will come back and haunt us in the next war," Roth said. "We're giving the world a ready-made excuse to ignore the Geneva Conventions. Rumsfeld has lowered the bar.


    The senior Pentagon consultant, who spent years in uniform, was in agreement with Kenneth Roth. The President, Rumsfeld, and Cambone, he said, "created the conditions that allowed transgressions to take place." He feared that Abu Ghraib had sent the message that the Pentagon was unable to handle its discretionary power. "When **** hits the fan, as it did on 9/11, how do you push the pedal?" the consultant asked. "You do it selectively and with intelligence."


    "You have to demonstrate that there are checks and balances in the system," he said. "When you live in a world of gray zones, you have to have very clear red lines."


    I think this snippet speaks for itself...any feedback welcome...Chad(Hangin'...that is) ;)
     
  18. SD

    SD Cured Fat Sticky Bud

    Theres a fine line between coercion of those who refuse to cooperate and torture. The fact that Torture holds a different meaning to most makes these prison officials and guards jobs that much tougher.


    However IMO you need coercion 'to a certain extent' with those terrorists unwilling to cooperate in a situation like this, lets face it getting information from the enemy is important. The question is how do we do such a thing without crossing that fine line between the two?


    And there is no room for 'fun' based torture in a situation like this. The incompetence and sheer lack of self control of these guards posing and taking photos while doing so to iraqi prisoners is astounding to me! Let me put it to you this way, if you leave the winning of a war up to soldiers like that...youve lost that war IMHO.
     
  19. SD

    SD Cured Fat Sticky Bud

    (Edited by SD at 3:14 pm on Mar. 11, 2005)
     
  20. GhostDog

    GhostDog Begun Flowering

    if i was dealing with a known terrorist who has killed, i would think torture would be ok. assuming he has information vital to me. does that make me a bad person? lol keep in mind i would not torture someone who was merely under suspicion. i am a soldier and i think our policys are too lax. that abu ghraib **** was mild in my opinion.
     

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