I was talking with my electro-mechanic buddies at work. With the grow room upgrades I have in mind, I want to change 3 breakers to a higher amperage rating. I have three 15A breakers that I would like to change to 20A. I was told that you can only do so if the existing wiring is capable of handling the extra load. Fine, good answer, makes sense and I fully understand. Q's: What is the minimum gauge wiring required for a 20A breaker/circuit? How do I tell what gauge wiring I currently have? How/can a breaker be changed without cutting power to the entire panel? Note: I know NOTHING when it comes to wiring schematics or procedures. Kid gloves please :roffl::roffl:
:kidding: If you can see the outer sheath of the wire in question, it should have the size stamped on it like the top wire in the pic Wire strippers usually have notches for the different gauges so you can strip the ends. You can use that to measure it. ..and if I'm not mistaken, 12/2 wire has a yellow sheath, and 14/2 has a white sheath. That's the way it is now, but depending on how old the wire is, that may not be the case. To change a breaker, you do not need to shut down the panel. They snap on to the main bus. When you pull the breaker out, it disconnects power to it. Being as you are an electrical newb, I would recommend you spend some time on youtube watching videos and researching how to do this safely. Otherwise find someone else who can. You can kill yourself dead as shit if you don't know what your doing.:5shocking: [YOUTUBE]MRmPymLyEMk[/YOUTUBE]
A wire strippers can show you the correct gauge, but if you don't know anything electrical, I'd get some schooling prior to attempting. Since the wire going into the breaker isn't hot, you don't need to cut power to the panel.
Use 12/2 for twenty amps. Though it is called 12/2, there are actually three wires in the bundle, hot (black), white (neutral) and green (ground).
Danger Will Robinson! The wires are ALWAYS hot unless the breaker is pulled out of the bus bar or the breaker is in the off position! I NEVER touch the wires or screws unless I remove the breaker from the bus bar or do a voltage reading coming out of the breaker because I have seen too much hack shit.
Thanks for all the help fellas! Joe- That shit cracked me up!!!:roffl::roffl::roffl: I would have done so to begin with, but electrical is one thing I can honestly say I know little about. I lost an uncle to an industrial electrical accident when I was very young and have been ridiculously intimidated by electricity ever since. Watched that youtube vid you posted. Seems relatively straight forward. Thanks for that. To be clear, 14/2 AND 14/3 are compatible with 20A breakers? I'll be taking the cover off later on this afternoon and post a few pics of what I find. Want positive visual confirmation on this one. Cant have my place shorting out and going up in flames while I'm at work all day... MG- Good catch on the no wire strippers until the breaker is disconnected! Not interested in experiencing that ZAP!
A day late and a $ short... asssit: Here ya go Electro-Heads There's also a label marked: Caution This device is CSA approved for use with #12 & #10 AWG Aluminum non-metallic sheated cable only when fitted with "D"(in a square, the same "D" logo as seen in the above photo) Aliminum wire adaptor part# QO-ALWA What am I dealing with...??? :jj:
How big a "Hack Job" is this? I don't even know how to tell the difference but for some reason I have a sneaky suspicion that isn't the 'cleanest' work anybody's ever seen... :roffl::roffl::roffl: :jj:
Looks like a typical 100 amp breaker panel. I've seen better work, but I've definitely seen worse. There are two hot wires and a neutral coming into the panel. The big red/black at the bottom are hot and connect to the bar behind the breakers. This is the power coming into the panel and is dangerous. The big white at the top is the neutral bar. The double wide breakers are 240 volt circuits serving larger appliances like stove, air conditioner, dryer, etc. 240 volt has two hot wires, both wired to power. The single wides are 120 volt lighting and plug circuits. They have one hot leg and one neutral. They usually have the black wire (hot) connected to the breaker, and the white wire (neutral) connected to the neutral bus along the top where all the other white wires are. So a typical 120 volt lighting/plug circuit would have three wires coming into the panel. A black, a white, and a bare copper. The black wire (hot) would connect to the breaker, which would snap into place on the hot bus bar. The white (neutral) would connect to the top neutral bar, and the bare copper would connect to the ground bar. A 240 circuit has the same wires (usually larger gauge) coming in but both the black (hot) and white (hot) connect to the breaker and snap onto the power bus, and the bare copper goes to the ground. That sends 120 volts down both lines. :icon_scratch: 120+120=240 What do you want to know?
Thanks Joe! Awesome breakdown, fully idiot proof, I understood every word. The single breakers you see are all 15A. Seeing as how my kitchen, spare room AND bathroom are all on the same 15A circuit, I desperately need the extra 5A. Presently, I have one of my 600w running on one circuit(I ran a heavy duty extension cord FROM one bedroom INTO the garden room to draw the HID power from a separate circuit) and a 6500btu A/C, exhaust fan, oscillating fan, kitchen outlets and the bathroom's light+ceiling extraction fan ALL running on the same 15A. What I NEED to know is: Can I remove the existing 15A breakers and REPLACE them with 20A breakers using the wiring in the photos above WITHOUT risk of fire and so on...? Today I showed the same pictures above to my electro-mechaninc buddy at work. He wasnt able to tell what gauge wiring I have just by looking and printed out a conversion list of corresponding wire gauge diameters. According to this table, a 14 gauge wire should have a .064084" diameter and 12 gauge wire should have a .08080810" diameter wire....14 gauge=0.064" and 12 gauge=0.081". We then found another Gauge/Amperage calculator that states 12 gauge is required for 20A on a run of wire longer than 20-25 feet. 14 gauge works on a run 20 feet or shorter. True or False? How the hell am I supposed to be able to know how many feet of wire were used in each run without ripping down the gyp-rock?!?
You have breakers called "square D", they are real cheap at home depot. The wire gauge in your breakers appears to be 12 guage. Some old panels have a common ground in series. This means that one copper wire starts at the panel, goes to the first circuit, then the second and so on. You can tell by taking the cover off of several wall outlets and then looking at the circuit, you should see a copper wire, a black wire and a white wire. If you see a copper at each outlet AND the number of outlets that are grounded are MORE than the amount of copper in the panel then this is a ground in series. No copper equals no ground, that can kill you or cause a fire if the appliance/light/switch shorts. The easiest way for a novice to solve your situation is to put in a 20 amp breaker, run 12/2 wire from it to a new outlet. That way you know you have the proper gauge wire, correct size breaker and a proper ground. That or just have a pro look at your panel. I ran a new circuit because my house is old and has a common ground and I don't trust those for shit. I installed a 30 amp 240V breaker at the main panel outside, ran 10/2 wire from there to another small panel I installed in the room. The panel in the room has two 15 amp 120V breakers fed by 12/2 wire and then I split the circuit into two 15 amp 120V outlets. When my T5 comes on tonight I'll post some better pics of it but here is an old one. I run a 1KW light on each circuit and then use the existing circuits for fans and such. Also, a flame defender is a good thing to have in the room if you are the slightest bit unsure about fire hazards. I have one in my room. Flame Defender
And also, If you are trying to add a a 20 amp breaker to this "Seeing as how my kitchen, spare room AND bathroom are all on the same 15A circuit, I desperately need the extra 5A", you need to know the total amp draw of each thing in the circuit when all of it is on. To be safe, and be within code (which will keep you safe from a circuit overload) your total amp load on the curcuit must be 80% or less of the total amperage of everything in the circuit. If you run 20 amps then the max amp draw on the circuit must be 16 amps or less. Anything more will over heat the circuit and cause the breaker to trip or a fire if the circuit over heats and the breaker does not trip for some reason. Be safe, run a new circuit!
MG, thanks for all that! Sincerely, I appreciate the GOOD LOOKING OUT! Its funny you added the second response. "And also, If you are trying to add a a 20 amp breaker to this "Seeing as how my kitchen, spare room AND bathroom are all on the same 15A circuit, I desperately need the extra 5A", you need to know the total amp draw of each thing in the circuit when all of it is on. To be safe, and be within code (which will keep you safe from a circuit overload) your total amp load on the curcuit must be 80% or less of the total amperage of everything in the circuit. If you run 20 amps then the max amp draw on the circuit must be 16 amps or less. Anything more will over heat the circuit and cause the breaker to trip or a fire if the circuit over heats and the breaker does not trip for some reason." This is PRECISELY why I'm looking to put 20A breakers buddy. By bumping the 15A's to 20A's, I AM DAMN WELL GUARANTEEING I wont go over the 80-85% total draw. By my calculations, referring to the CSA Energy Guide labels on each item, my total draw should not be more than 15-16A per circuit. I might have been wrong about the kitchen. I think the fridge outlet has its own 15A circuit, cause I have six 15A breakers in my panel and only 4 rooms+ Bathroom. If I upgrade all six 15A to 20A, I should have no problem running two 600w(6A each), 6500btu A/C(5.9A), 6" exhaust fan(1A), 2-3 12" oscillating table fans(how much could that possibly draw? 2A for all 3??) and a 4 or 6 bulb 4' T5 Fluo(Amperage to be determined). I plan to run my two 600's on the line I ran from one bedroom to the other. That's 12A on a 15A circuit(present), soon to be 12A on a 20A circuit. No worries there. The 6500btu A/C, 4'T5, exhaust fan and oscillating fans are what's left to run on the remaining 15A circuit, soon to be 20A(The goal of this exercise). I live in an apartment, so stealth is key. Running wires and punching holes is exactly what I'm trying to avoid. Doing my best to make an extremely important INFORMED decision. Keep pouring on the knowledge people! :thumbs-up:
first off, if you are feeding 12 gauge wire with 30 amps you have exceeded code already. need to upgrade to 10 gauge wire to feed the subpanel (10/3 - 2 hots (black, red), one neutral(white), and the ground wire (green or bare copper)), THEN 12/2 for the 15 and 20 amp circuits. , bro! Great topic, anyway, everybody needs to know this shit. I'm a disabled industrial electrician with over 20 years in the field, fyi.
if you do it at the right time of day, running new wire in an apt is not that hard. From the sound of things you might look into surface mount raceway (no drilling into walls except getting out of the panel and maybe between rooms), it mounts with sticky tape or screws, you lay either romex or thhn wire inside it to get where you need to go, works great. YOu will be pushing a couple of circuits mighty close and if you are off on your numbers your equipment, belongings and neighbors will suffer the consequences. running a circuit at max causes unnecessary heat buildup, issues. Also on this panel the ground buss IS the neutral buss. This has a "bonded" neutral, which means the ground and neutral are "connected" - no biggie, just harder if you wanted to say use internet over power or something like that, the ground is not as clean as a panel with an actual "bonded grounding rod", which is a 10 ft stick of copper driven into the ground, then tied to the panel and the water line by at least a #8 bare copper wire. Any help you need, I'd be glad to assist my friend. I really think you should run a new set of wires, bro. Looking at that stuff and how the grounds are done, I WOULD NOT BUMP UP THOSE BREAKERS, I would put in a 30 or 50 amp 240v 2pole breaker, run some new 10/3 or 8/3 and put in a small subpanel in the new room. If you do it right, come inspection time they won't ever notice - and you won't want to move, ever, lol! We can walk you thru every step, bro. I don't think there are laws against putting up bookshelfs, shit like that in your apartment, is there, lol? It would be cheapest to run the 30 amp, surface mount raceway, thhn (separate wires not sheathed in plastic like romex)), small subpanel and then you could have 2 15 amp circuits, one for the lights and one for everything else. 50 amp would be even better, and you can keep them at 240v for less amp draw, cheaper usage, while still having extra 120v AND the extra power from the existing circuits.
