The Unofficial "Official Coco Thread!!!!

Discussion in 'Organic Cultivation' started by Mr. Wakenbake, Nov 18, 2006.

  1. Mr. Wakenbake

    Mr. Wakenbake Latae Sententiae Excommunication

    This is the Unofficial Official COCO Thread! Welcome!

    Come in, sit down and have a chat with other coco grower's.Ask a question or add some insight to a problem. Please, leave the bullshit at the door though or you will be asked to remove yourself.

    I hope this thread is an informative source for anyone that wants to use COCO in ANY WAY!
     
  2. campogk

    campogk Wandering... but not lost

    i hate to say it W'n'B, but HYDRO HYDRO HYDRO! there are just too many advantages to the quick drying, super porous, better root stabilizing, ph balanced Hydroton pellets!! With organic nutrients, you could have the even the most knowledgable connosieur think your harvest was grown in organic soil (in about 2/3 the time). I beleive coco is notorious for holding water for an excessive amount of time... good luck!
     
  3. Mr. Wakenbake

    Mr. Wakenbake Latae Sententiae Excommunication

    If I am going hydro I will be doing hand watered hydro, with coco and perlite... Other than some mild pH problems with newer users I have never heard of anyone complain about the coco coir.


    Hydroton is out of the question.. so is DWC, NFT, or any other hydro method cept hand watering..with coco and perlite.... anyone with experience with this medium here on GK???
     
  4. doc420

    doc420 New Sprout

    Coco coir helps store alot of water in the roots,stem becomes thicker,healthier and Coco coirs comes pH stable.
     
  5. Bud Greenright

    Bud Greenright In the garden, you?

    Sorry I can't help WnB I am still a dirt bag grower. However, I myself am considering the switch to hydro in a harvest or two. I only recently heard of this Coco stuff(actually thought it was a form of cocoa extract:icon_confused: ) and your right not alot of info out there but i'll be a fly on the wall in this thread to see were you get to at the end.
     
  6. Mr. Wakenbake

    Mr. Wakenbake Latae Sententiae Excommunication

    WELL I did find some info on it.. so here it is a shameless copy and paste but damn this site needs some info on it!


    not my info... this info came from another copy and paste from grower snowey mountain .. over on hg420.com


    What is Coco Peat (Coir) and why is it desirable as a soiless growing media?


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    (FYI)


    Coco (Coir) is the outside layer of husk that surrounds the shell of the coconut.


    It consists mainly of fibres, which have traditionally been used to manufacture rope, carpets, doormats, upholstery stuffing, brushes etc.


    Between these fibres is the corky substance called coir pith or coir dust which has recently been widely recognised as the superior growing medium in which to grow tomatoes, roses and many other crops.


    The horticulture industry often calls this substrate coco-peat or coir-peat. Sometimes it is known by similar sounding brand names


    Why Coir you ask...


    For starters it has excellent "Air Porosity qualities":


    Coir maintains excellent air porosity even when saturated and gives better crops with faster developing roots and more flowers and fruit per plant when used correctly.


    It also has excellent "Water Retention" qualities:


    Coir has better water retention qualities then peat and other growing media...


    That all means that coco has an excellent air/water ratio for horticultural purposes .


    It quickly Reabsorbs Water From A Dry State:


    Coir peat absorbs moisture immediately, even from a dry state, unlike sphagnum peat which tends to shrink when dry and form a crust.


    This causes water run-off from the top surface and water loss between the peat and the inside edge of the flower pot. Thus plants growing in coir tend to recover quicker from dry conditions.


    "Irrigation Efficiency":


    The ease of re-wetting and the quick drainage characteristics of coir means that coir needs to be irrigated less frequently and for shorter periods.


    This leads to reduced leaching losses of nutrients and lower water use.


    Faster Germination Times And Quicker Seedling Rotations:


    The inherent qualities of coir and the optimum water/air availability are ideal for quick rooting and propagation. ..


    Environmentally Preferable to the Alternatives:


    In its unprocessed state, coir dust is a waste product in its country of origin.


    Its use therefore, does not involve the destruction of peat bogs and natural wetland wildlife habitat.


    It is a renewable resource with no hazardous disposal problems (unlike some alternatives such as rock wool).


    Having carefully researched the question, Horticultural Coir Ltd (who's website this article is from) is quite satisfied that the fossil fuel consumption associated with the transport of coir from Asia are no greater, and most likely significantly less that the fuel costs involved in the production and transport of peat-moss and rock-wool...


    It degrades Slower Than Many of Its Rivals:


    The lignin content of around 45% ensures that the excellent water/air ratio is maintained over a longer period of time.


    Thus, for example, good performance is maintained over the commercial life of a rose plant which my be over 5 yeas.


    It is free from Soil Diseases:


    Because Coir originates above ground, it does not contain any soil diseases.


    In fact several studies have indicated that coir substrate brings increased resistance to pythium and other root diseases.


    The Production Process (How it's made):


    The entire coconut husk is soaked in water and the fibres removed at the fibre factory for the production of brushes, rope, carpets, matting, etc.


    The coir pith is unused and becomes a bye-product of the fibre factory process.


    Depending upon many factors including the local climate, the soaking method and the particular processes used in the coir fibre factory, the coir pith may be suitable for horticultural use.


    If it is of suitable quality, it is moved from the coir fibre factory and the coir pith is then sieved to remove large fibres.


    Sieve size and thus particle size will be determined by customers' requirements.


    Usually, coir pith is washed at this point to reduce the unwanted salts before being dried to less than 20% moisture.


    The coir will then be compressed into a less bulky form suitable for shipment.


    This may be in the form of grow-bags, small 650-gram briquettes or larger blocks. Compression will vary according to customer's requirements but in most cases it will usually be between 4:1 up to an 8 To 1 ratio.
     
  7. Mr. Wakenbake

    Mr. Wakenbake Latae Sententiae Excommunication

    Here is some more from Snowey Mountain over on HG420 ... all credit goes to him...


    More Coco (Coir) Trivia


    (from brainyencyclopedia.com)


    Coir is a coarse fibre extracted from husk, the fibrous outer shell of a coconut.


    Structure:


    The individual fibre cells are narrow and hollow, with thick walls made of cellulose. They are pale when immature but later become hardened and yellowed as a layer of lignin, is deposited on their walls. Mature brown coir fibres contain more lignin and less cellulose than fibres such as flax and cotton and so are stronger but less flexible. They are made up of small threads, each less than 0.05 inch (1.3 mm) long and 10 to 20 micrometres in diameter. White fibre is smoother and finer, but also weaker.


    The coir fibre is relatively water-proof and is the only natural fibre resistant to damage by salt water.


    Processing:


    Green coconuts, harvested after about six to twelve months on the plant, contain pliable white fibres. Brown fibre is obtained by harvesting fully mature coconuts when the nutritious layer surrounding the seed is ready to be processed into copra and desiccated coconut. The fibrous layer of the fruit is then separated from the hard shell (manually) by driving the fruit down onto a spike to split it(De-husking). Machines are now available which crush the whole fruit to give the loose fibres.


    Brown fibre:


    The fibrous husks are soaked in pits or in nets in a slow moving body of water to swell and soften the fibres. The long bristle fibres are separated from the shorter mattress fibres underneath the skin of the nut, a process known as wet-milling. The mattress fibres are sifted to remove dirt and other rubbish, dried and packed into bales. Some mattress fibre is allowed to retain more moisture so that it retains its elasticity for 'twisted' fibre production. The coir fibre is elastic enough to twist without breaking and it holds a curl as though permanently waved. Twisting is done by simply making a rope of the hank of fibre and twisting it using a machine or by hand. The longer bristle fibre is washed in clean water and then dried before being tied into bundles or hunks. It may then be cleaned and 'hackled' by steel combs to straighten the fibres and remove any shorter fibre pieces. Coir bristle fibre can also be bleached and dyed to obtain hanks of different colours.


    White fibre:


    The immature husks are suspended in a river or water-filled pit for up to ten months. During this time micro-organisms break down the plant tissues surrounding the fibres to loosen them - a process known as retting. Segments of the husk are then beaten by hand to separate out the long fibres which are subsequently dried and cleaned. Cleaned fibre is ready for spinning into yarn using a simple one-handed system or a spinning wheel.


    Uses


    Brown coir is used in brushes, doormats, mattresses and sacking. A small amount is also made into twine. Pads of curled brown coir fibre, made by needle-felting (a machine technique that mats the fibres together) are shaped and cut to fill mattresses and for use in erosion control on river banks and hillsides. A major proportion of brown coir pads are sprayed with rubber latex which bonds the fibres together (rubberized coir) to be used as upholstery padding for the automobile industry in Europe. The material is also used for insulation and packaging. The major use of white coir is in rope manufacture. Mats of woven coir fibre are made from the finer grades of bristle and white fibre using hand or mechanical looms.


    Coir is recommended as substitute for milled peat moss because it is free of bacteria and fungal spores.


    Major producers


    Total world coir fibre production is 250,000 tonnes. The coir fibre industry is particularly important in some areas of the developing world. India, mainly the coastal region of Kerala State, produces 60% of the total world supply of white coir fibre. Sri Lanka produces 36% of the total world brown fibre output. Over 50% of the coir fibre produced annually throughout the world is consumed in the countries of origin, mainly India.
     
  8. Mr. Wakenbake

    Mr. Wakenbake Latae Sententiae Excommunication

    and yet even more informative info on coco coir for those wandering about it.. also i read EVERYTHING I CUT AND PASTE! again thank you snowey grower for this info on hg420.com


    People be loving the results they're getting with Coco Peat..


    Please feel free to chime in if your growing with Coir and tell us about any of the pro's and cons one may experience. :)


    [The following is digested from the book "Integral Hydroponics".


    If your going to buy one book this year, let this be it. Highly imformative.]


    COCO COIR is a product derived from the husks of the coconut.


    Visually it looks like peat.It's air capacity is about 30%.


    Coir is most suited as a run to waste medium.


    Coir can become saturated and it is not truly inert medium.


    This means that the nutrient will change over a short period (due to the nutrient collecting micro and macro elements as it passes through the coir.)


    Coir tends to release potassium and to withold calcium.


    For this reason it is desirable to use a nutrient that is blended specifically for coir.


    Coir has a remarkable capacity to protect the plants root system in times of heat. It also tends to promote vigorous and healthy root development.


    Plant growth tends to be very consistant with coir.


    Coir is very tolerant of over and under watering, which makes it a very forgiving growing medium.


    Coir has a very strong cation exchange ability, which means it can hold and release nutrient elements based on the plants needs.


    Coir tends to retain nutrient salts. because of this, less nutrient (lower ec) is required.


    On a less positive note, coir can also contain high levels of sodium (salt).


    We experienced massive problems with a very big "name brand" of compressed coir slabs. Subsequent testing of this product yielded findings of extreme levels os sodium within the medium. If your growing in coir be aware that this can be a potential problem.


    Either purchase a pre-flushed coir product or flush ph (5.5-6.0) stabilised water through the coir prior to use.


    Measure the ec of the water and then measure the ec of the run off.


    When they are the same, it is ready for use.


    Large amounts of potassium are naturally present in coir.


    Potassium competes with calcium and magnesium... buffering and plant nutrition needs to compensate for this!!


    For this reason there are several nutrients that are specifically formulated with the coco coir's unique characteristics in mind.


    By using a nutrient specifically formulated for the coir based system, you are ensuring that your plants are receiving the best possible nutritient package.


    ...it's also a great stuff out in the veggie garden after it's been used. :)


    [As coco gets old it breaks down and releases P and K.


    That's why the coco nutrients are lower in P and K, to allow for the additional nutrients released by the medium.


    In the early stages the coco is inert and therefore a "standard" grow formula works well.


    As you enter flower It is strongly suggested that one should purchase and use a Coco specific nutrient formula. (for best results.)


    A run to waste "runoff" of 10-20% of the volume watered each watering is the usual recommendation to avoid salt(s) build-up in the media.]


    __________________
     
  9. SMARMY

    SMARMY Cuban Bee

    Whats wrong with setting up a drip system? Its a lot easier than hand watering and you will get better results with a constant drip than hand watering. you might as well go the next step and automate it. That's just silly to hand water hydro:laughing5:
     
  10. Mr. Wakenbake

    Mr. Wakenbake Latae Sententiae Excommunication

    Im sorry swarmy but coco coir can be treated like soil or hydro .... ! And hand watering is just the way to go for me right now. Due to the fact that I want to Keep it Simple! and cheap.. i have also seen the results of coco coir and hand watering and it's just amazing ... compared to just soil and hand watering..


    All of the reading I have done on the coco as of late is really interesting...and I am trying not to spend a lot of $$$ this time around as I may be getting a bigger area to grow in within the next year and I don't want to change alot and add drippers and timers and all that..


    I will post some of the pms that me and captu4ik has been passing back and forth.. maybe it will shed a light on this coco subject as he is a pro with it!
     
  11. doc420

    doc420 New Sprout

    One thing I like about coco is that it makes my medium perfect.I add 50% Coco coir, 25% Fox Farms Ocean Soil,25% Perlite.Thats all.
     
  12. Mr. Wakenbake

    Mr. Wakenbake Latae Sententiae Excommunication

    This is a PM between me and captu4ik.. a fellow grower of ours. he has been basically schooling me on the coco and I think the info could use a home here..


    Quote:


    Originally Posted by Mr.Wakenbake


    Just wandering what exactly is the best brand of coco to use? I will be ordering some tonight and I want as little hassle with it as possible. Also any pointers on nutrients that are compatible with it would be much appreciated.. I am fed up with soil, and not getting the results I know I should be getting. Thanks in advance man.


    I use Botanicare coco, but I mix it 50/50 with perlite. Please note that there are two seperate products : Coco, and Coco Coir. Coco is finely ground, and looks almost like peat moss when it is wet. Coco needs to be mixed with Perlite or it will stay too wet, won't get enough oxygen. Coco Coir is much coarser ground, and resembles what it comes from : coconut shells. Coco Coir doesn't need perlite, it drys out really quick, providing lots of oxygen to the roots.


    Assuming that you will be hand-watering, here's the deal : If you don't mind watering every day, use Coco Coir. If you want to feed/water every other day, use Coco and Perlite. If you want to feed/water every 4 to 5 days, use straight Coco. I'd recommend the Coco Coir. As far as what brand, choose Botanicare or any other brand name Coco Coir. The cheap, off-brand stuff can contain salt, which will really fuck you up.


    As far as nutes, I use GH Flora series nutes (Grow and Bloom), Cal-Mag, and Liquid Karma. Also some FF bloom enhancers. This is important : When using coco products, they will hold a certain amount of nutes, especially Calcium and Magnesium (that's part of the reason for using Cal-Mag). Because of this, the coco must first be soaked in 1/4 strength nutes. When you buy coco, it is usually in a compressed form. It is necessary to soak it to bust it up. When you do this, don't use water, use 1/4 strength nutes.


    If you want exact nute schedules, PM me. I'll be updating my current growlog tonight, so take a look at my WW's. I hate to brag, but they are beautiful. Coco and GH nutes, and some good genetics ...


    Hope this helps -- **


    __________________


    And some more info for you peeps:


    Quote:


    Originally Posted by Mr.Wakenbake


    Really you have answered a lot of questions already except that I hear a lot of people have pH issues with the coco coir.


    There should be no pH issues with coco, as it is pH nuetral (7.0), unlike rockwool or anything containing peat or sphagnum moss (most comm'l potting mixes). Something which is very important, although often overlooked, is runoff. When you are using any kind of 'soilless' mix, including coco, when you water, it is necessary to water the plant until 20% of what goes in comes back out, as run-off. This washes the dried up nutes from past waterings out of the coco, ensuring the pH stays nuetral. If you do not get this run-off every watering, your nutes will build up in the coco (or other medium) and turn to salts, which will really mess you up.


    Quote:


    Now the next question is I gues.... well what is the CORRECT pH to grow at in coco coir, and also how much does it fluctuate and what is done to control that?


    Your nutes should be adjusted to a pH of 6.2 to 6.5. If you water like I explained above, you should be able to maintain that. To check the pH of the coco during your grow, catch the first bit of run-off from one plant when you water. Check the pH of this run=off. If things are right, the pH of the run-off will match the pH of the nutes you just watered with. If it isn't, you simply flush them all with 1/4 strength nutes, and start all over again. I've never had to flush.


    Remember also, it is impossible to overwater with coco coir.


    Thank you captu4ik for the info! I am sure there will be more info to come on this subject as I will be ordering some coco coir soon!
     
  13. Mr. Wakenbake

    Mr. Wakenbake Latae Sententiae Excommunication

    Well guys I've just ordered my coco coir... Sunleaves brand. Oh yeah.. just ordered some grow bags too.. figured it's time to ditch the pots all together.. grow bags are the shit!
     
  14. Mr. Wakenbake

    Mr. Wakenbake Latae Sententiae Excommunication

    the coco coir came in today, adn my grow bags..woo hoo... I still have to read up on the coco more before i begin to use it, and I need to go get some perlite for the mixture.. and I think that I am only going to put 2-3 plants in the coco this time around.


    Anyways any suggestions on the coco would be nice guys and gals..... anything else that can be added?
     
    Slugg likes this.
  15. UrBigBuddie

    UrBigBuddie MEDI-GROWER

    Yea...well said!!! Coco Coir!

    Yes , well said mikey(WnB) One can use coco in HYDRO or AS just a SOIL type medium too. So, well replied mikey ma man....:qbluewacko: :punk:


    Anyway, im up for this too, and will be studying these threads that your keeping going on this perticular type of medium(COCO), as im very intersted in it too.


    As a good few peeps ive known in the past, were using coco for their grow's, and all loved the coco, instead of so called "Normal" SOIL of any kind!!!


    Peace Out for now WnB....


    very interesting my man,


    UrBigBuddie,............:punk: :qbluewacko: :punk:
     
  16. Slugg

    Slugg Developed Alternating Nodes

    Based on this thread (and the lack of any quality growing media out here) my wife and I are going to give coco a try. The Coco Coir comes in bricks and/or mats. Is this right? I assumed I should be looking for bags. And you say this stuff is reusable as well? If all this is true, then you my friend have solved alot of issues we are having with this mirical grow crap they sell out here.


    Thanks, if it wasn't for you starting this thread, I never would have known about this stuff.


    Slugg
     
  17. Mr. Wakenbake

    Mr. Wakenbake Latae Sententiae Excommunication

    i bought a big 4.5KG compressed sunleaves coco coir block and soaked it in water to expand it.It filled up a 68L rubber maid tub....


    Also I just went out and got 2 big bags of perlite to mix with it... The KEYS TO SUCCESS is FLUSHING ALL the SALTS out of the medium...


    You can literally just fill up a large tub of water and just peel the block apart piece by piece.. Once expanded it's still not ready to use. You must soak it in your grow solution @ 1/4 strength and preferably overnight. This will allow the coco to soak up the nutrients that your small adolescent plants need to survive .. because it's completely barren in nutrient content.


    Try ... http://www.wormsway.com for the Sunleaves brand... and really the cheapest shipping anywhere....
     
  18. Artie

    Artie Latae Sententiae Excommunication

    Can't wait to see the results mikey.
     
  19. Slugg

    Slugg Developed Alternating Nodes

    General Info


    Since I am totally piggy backing off his thread (and ordering this stuff now), I figured I needed to add something. This is some General info.


    I am still bewildered that something this cool exists. It seems to have all the bennifits of hydro with none of the complex set up.


    The following information was gathered from www.greeneem.com


    Also, here is a link to a tutorial on Organic Hydro/soil hybrid using Coco Coir. Enjoy:


    http://www.cannabisculture.com/articles/1534.html


    If WnB doesn't mind, I'll post more stuff if/as I find it.


    Thanks again for starting this thread.


    Best Alternative to Mined Peat Moss.


    CoCo Coir Peat is a proven natural alternative to mined peat moss, therefore using it helps slow down peat extraction from environmentally sensitive swamps world wide. Used as a growing medium/potting medium CoCo Coir Peat outperforms most of the popular brands of Peat and Sphagnum Peats.


    Healthy root growth is easy with CoCo Coir Peat 100% natural organic coir. Derived from the husk of the coconut, it is an excellent growing medium for both commercial and home gardening applications. The Hydroponic and Horticulture Industries have observed that plants grown with the aid of coir develop larger roots, stems and blooms. This is because unlike ordinary soil, which is usually compacted, CoCo Coir Peat provides more breathing space and aeration for plant roots, resulting in better growth


    CoCo Coir Peat can retain moisture up to nine times its own volume while maintaining excellent air filled porosity, providing vital oxygen to the roots and soil. It's fibrous and sponge-like structure is ideal for any soil condition, whether breaking up the heaviest of clay soils or retaining moisture in sandy soils. It is by far the most efficient and economical way to rehabilitate degraded soils without the risk of contamination. CoCo Coir Peat has a naturally high lignin content which encourages favorable micro-organisms around the root zone. Having a slow degradation rate, it conditions the soil and promotes the development of an optimum pH level. CoCo Coir peat has been universally accepted as an excellent plant growth substrate as well as a soil additive


    CoCo Coir Peat is the future of growing mediums and will last three times as long as Peat Moss and Sphagnum Moss. CoCo Coir Peat is hydrophilic and will re-wet easily without the use of chemical wetting agents and is capable of holding and releasing nutrients.


    Applications of CoCo Coir Peat.


    Hydroponics, Golf course greens, Potting mixes, Cut flowers, Propagating, Re-planting, Mushroom farming, Bonsai mixes, Turf farming, Garden beds, Bedding medium for Earth worms, Vegetable gardens, Rose cultivation and general garden uses.
     
  20. Mr. Wakenbake

    Mr. Wakenbake Latae Sententiae Excommunication

    Thanks for the info... I don't mind any info being put here... cept misleading info.. everything so far has been tip top so just don't post anything your not sure about first.. but this is some good stuff.


    Let's keep it going...


    It won't be long and the mandala plants will be going into the coco/soil mix... I have just decided to make my own soil mix using the coco and not use it straight...


    edited on 12-27-06
     

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