Defoliation

Discussion in 'Advanced Cultivation' started by Dumme, Jun 2, 2017.

  1. Dumme

    Dumme Member

    There's not enough soil to feed the plants for any length of time @ about 100 cubic inches, although I've been known to mix the soil with organic ingredients. Generally I mix the additives directly with the tank water. I find that the soil helps with young seedlings and clones more than anything else really. I use it as a buffer for hormone therapy more so than anything else.
    I've used:
    -"City" Tap Water (+8.1pH and up, no RO filter)
    -Organic Fish Feed (Aquaorganic brand)
    -FeEDDHA or FeDTPA (iron)
    -Organic Rock Phosphate
    -Organic Potassium Sulfate
    -OMRI Calcium Sulfate
    -Food grade Magnesium Sulfate
    -Food Grade Diatomaceous Earth(Silica) + (etc..)
    -Borax Soap
    -Worm Castings

    I also modified my system to include hardware to add small amounts of nutrients, as man does on nature.
    Things I've use in my plumbing:
    -Copper PEX crimp ring (Copper)
    -Galvanized Steel couplings (Zinc)

    And only in emergencies...
    -Muriatic Acid (pH down)
    -Phosphoric Acid (pH down)
    -Potassium Hydroxide (pH up)
     
  2. Dumme

    Dumme Member

    There's real science behind what I've posted, and studies done by accredited sources, and yes, I do read many books, but a lot of this information is my own notes from lectures I attended. I've watched countless videos on "defoliation for larger yield", and read a lot of peoples writings. I truly tried to understand "objectively" why people claim defoliation works. No one really explains the science behind it. To explain the results of the process, they either use "empirical observation", which in reality, there's no way to compare the same plant to before the leaves were cut, or they use "social conformity", which is seen by saying, "the other guy is doing it, and so it must be the proper way".

    ...just like everything else, some book are creditable if your careful of the source, regurgitated or not. I'm not arguing "for" or "against" defoliation. I simply posted what happens to the plant. Take from it what you want.
     
    blazerwill420 likes this.
  3. nippie

    nippie preachin' and pimpin'

    I gotcha, the additives. Was wondering how you got a decent product. Ive tried to explain to some aquaponics that is just based off fish poo doesnt have the best profile to grow marijuana.

    Ive seen people use nails and banana peels without the best results
     
  4. Dumme

    Dumme Member

    Nails are ferric iron, and won't help the system at all. The iron plants need is ferrous iron.

    Bananas may be useful if you first feed them to worms and make a tea out of them. Otherwise, I'd let it rot first, as it'd take a long time for microbes to break it down enough for the plants to get any use out of it.
     
  5. nippie

    nippie preachin' and pimpin'

    From my understanding ( noob myself in aqua) ferric vs ferrous constantly change. Depends on factors like ph etc

    You got a link to the food. Trying to find something thats not absurd expensive but decent for fish

    Also, aorry for thread jack
     
  6. Dumme

    Dumme Member

    https://www.amazon.com/AquaOrganic-...20lbs/dp/B00X4S8U6G/ref=sr_1_3?tag=aquapon-20

    It's organic fish feed, but a little more on the expensive side. When I comes to feed, I don't cut corners. Good feed= healthy fish = healthy cannabis.
     
  7. Justcheckingitout

    Justcheckingitout GK Old Timer

    Three a light, Thats what I thought that book was. We were talking about that a few monts back. I was looking for a free download.
     
  8. bigbudztoo

    bigbudztoo growin the good stuff

    y
    yeah, but they want 500 bucks for it. No fucking way.
     
  9. Justcheckingitout

    Justcheckingitout GK Old Timer

    Yeah thats why I was looking for a free download.
     
    bigbudztoo likes this.
  10. SuperMoChombo

    SuperMoChombo Well-Known Member

    "Yes, its called "relative osmotic location". It's also important to understand that all leaves work as a collective, and are not specific to the bud their next to. If you cut the lower leaves (lollipoping), but leave the lower flower, photosynthate from the upper leaves will still reach the lower flowers, at a lesser amount, for two reasons. First, distance, and this is where relative osmotic location comes in. The closer the food is to the usage the more feeding is completed. Secondly, sink strength. If the draw (osmosis) is greater in one area, it will try to go there first, even though lesser cells may draw from the photosynthate pool on the way."

    OK. Just so were are all speaking the same language here, photosynthate is the food that the plant cells can use to grow buds. Buds being the stuff we smoke. A bud site is not just the cola, which is the bud site on the terminal end of a stem, but also all the other sites that a bud forms along the stem. Cola = top bud site. Bud site = cola + all the other buds up and down the stem.

    I also limit my comments to indoor plants. Outdoor plants, with the abundance of sunshine, seem less effected by distance from the light source than indoor plants for obvious reasons.

    My goal is to take a plant that naturally grows into a triangle type shape and flip it so the base (wide part) of the triangle is at the top, then cram it close to neighbors like freezing kids huddling under a heat lamp trying to get warm. The end effect I am looking for is essentially what you see in MGJ's tables - an even, densely packed carpet of terminal buds, without a lot of shaded, far-away-from-the-light bud sites.

    What I aim to do is manipulate what parts of the plants gets the most photosynthate, and which parts get chopped off as never being productive no matter what simply due to location. My thought is you can just leave the buds you will eventually want and cut off the rest. The plant can't send energy to a bud that doesn't exist. Now with defoliation, assuming you are starting out with a properly pruned plant, I think you can spread the wealth the light provides more evenly among the buds you want to keep by getting rid of shady spots that are created by large upper fan leaves. Although you may reduce the size of the buds near the fan leaf you cut off, you will improve the size of the buds the next layer down into the understory.

    Is each bud site a sink? Is a sink a draw for photosynthate, the strength of which is determined by proximity?
     
  11. ResinRubber

    ResinRubber Civilly disobedient/Mod

    Dumme, I posted this in your Aquaponic thread and figured it equally relevant here.

     
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  12. SuperMoChombo

    SuperMoChombo Well-Known Member

    One more thought: some plants require the cutting off of things to do what man wants it to do. Like apple trees. There is actually a name for a person who can properly prune fruit trees to make them produce edible fruit, and I know apple trees won't unless you do it right. Name escapes me atm.

    Basically I am an intuitive defoliator - def not a swhazzer - but I want to know what's going on inside the plant while i am doing it.

    I have a fresh crop in flower now. I am just today starting my week three chop-fest. Man I take some weight off those plants from low low shit. If I don't, the upper nugs are smaller in the end and I'm stuck trying to trim a pile of shaggy frumunda peanuts. Which end up pea-sized nugs of questionable commercial value.

    this is to be avoided at all cost.
     
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  13. SuperMoChombo

    SuperMoChombo Well-Known Member

    as to to stress, you can def over do it, and some types of stress just screw ya. I dried a table out for 36 hours this run. pump failure at just the time i decided to take a one day vaca. The plants came back and are OK, but not. I know they will not be 3 zip plants, like the table next to it. Other stress is VERY beneficial, but light stress. A single topping in week 3 veg. Some defoliation of fans. LST. Light stress with purpose good. Heavy stress on accident bad.
     
  14. Dumme

    Dumme Member

    Yes, but keep in mind a "bud" is not just what we smoke, it can be a leaf, flower, or a shoot.

    "Bud" that we smoke is a slang term, coined by hippies, and unrelated.

    Yes, a "sink" is an area of low pressure, and draws from "source" cells within the leaf, in a process called diffusion, through osmosis. The strength is determined by "sink strength", and of course, the areas in the vicinity of the highest sink strength, get most of the photosynthate.
     
  15. Dumme

    Dumme Member

    I wouldn't compare an annual to a perennial. The main reason to prune fruit plants like apple trees and grapes is because the fruit only grows on "new growth", and where cannabis is totally new growth, it's moot.
     
  16. blazerwill420

    blazerwill420 Fuck AUMA

    There's book learning and real life. You'll find times when there is either no answer or only a partial answer in your book. Free your mind and the rest will follow.
     
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  17. SuperMoChombo

    SuperMoChombo Well-Known Member

    Just saying cutting stuff we grow is common. I wasn't saying wacky tobaccy is anything like a fruit tree other than they are both plants people grow.

    the next question is does it make sense to assume that anywhere there is green there is chlorophyll and therefore a site where photosynthate (hereinafter "food") is made? Or is the kitchen in the leaves alone?
     
  18. Dumme

    Dumme Member

    Photosynthesis can occur anywhere within the plant that contains chloroplast, sometimes even the roots. Stem photosynthesis plays a relatively minor role, as a whole, and isn't even enough to sustain life, let alone any new growth. Most of all photosynthesis occurs in the leaves.
     
  19. SuperMoChombo

    SuperMoChombo Well-Known Member

    Ok. Is it possible to track the location of the sinks, physically on an individual cannabis plant?

    If so, where are they located?
     
  20. Dumme

    Dumme Member

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