Polyploidism in Cannabis

Hey man, don't drag me into this conversation...I'm a Physicist, not a "Plantologist."

 

So, uh......anyone (UBB???) had a whorled phyllotoxy or whatever that turned out to be female???? Cuz I have one now....





Those are three cotys, no true leaves yet....I have been reading very mixed findings. Some peoples went hermie, some reg male, some reg female.....

 

Heya CG,


I wouldn't think too much of it. Whorlled phylotoxy (sic) is is the result of a variation in a single chromosome. The genetic make-up of ganja has XX number of chromosomes. Certain chromosomes control the growth pattern of the plant at certain points of the plant life. A few of these chromosomes and their specific role have been identified and are outlined in the first post. A single chromosome variant (which is what causes whorlled phylotoxy) has not been shown to have any influence on plant sexuality. More details below...


T.A. - To help you with a visualization picture this -


Have you ever seen the a-typical diagram of a DNA strand? It's called a double helix. If you haven't seen it, picture two ladders wrapped around each other in a spiral pattern. Each "rung" of the ladder (also referred to as a "chain") contains a set of chromosomes.


MJ is a biploid. Meaning it has two chains (or ladders) of DNA wrapped around each other in a spiral pattern. A tri-ploid would have three chains or ladders in the spiral, and a tetraploid would have four.


Now, tri-ploids are proven inferior in all studies of polyploidism on any species of plant I have read about this subject on. Tetraploids are shown to be superior to the normal biploid of any particular species of plant. (This is why, although I am skeptical of UBB's claims, I certainly hope the best!) The thing is, there are few studies of polyploidism in cannabis. Many say it does not occur naturally in cannabis, that MJ requires chemical treatments to induce polyploidy. Another article I had come across years ago stated polyploidism in MJ only occurs once in every couple hundred thousand to once in a million or more. Either way you slice it, polyploidism in cannabis is either non-existant naturally or is extremely rare.


The big thing about UBB's claims of polyploidy that make skeptical is that he is running landrace genetics. Since polyploidism is easily reverted back to bi-ploidism by the slightest change in environment, (they simply shed the excess DNA chains or ladders and revert back to biploids with the slightest change in temp's., RH, lighting, nutrients etc..) and that most of all polyploids occur by forced genetic introduction of another species or sub-species, it seems unlikely that a true landrace would have any polyploid traits.


With those facts in mind, it seems much more logical that what UBB is seeing is genetic mutation (otherwise known as a "variant") in a single or multiple chromosome(s).


I will say again, I do hope that UBB does have a polyploid. If he can prove it with a print out of the mapping, showing a tetra-helix DNA chain, I want some of the pollen from his males for "testing". I have some bad ass strains to cross, and I would like to try isolate a true poly just for breeding purposes.


I have some connections at UCLA, and can get genetic testing done by a friend who is working on his Masters degree in micro-biology. He is more than happy to do me a favor an test anything I want, but time is limited as he only has 1 more year of study. That means I will be lucky to get 3 grows tested after growing crosses and selecting possible poly's.


OK, I have rambled enough. I hope that helps explain the topic at hand, and the discussion UBB and I have been having.


Cheers!

 

THANK YOU SO MUCH. For both the pm reply and this.......thank you. You make me feel a lot better. Even if I get a male, which would suck, I still feel better knowing that I wasn't destined from the get-go. At least now I have a chance.


I have to add though, it's "phyllotaxy" not toxy.......don't want to step on your toes, you are WAY smarter about this than me, I just kept getting corrected by the search engines


People in general seem to profess that they are getting comparably larger yeilds with their whorrled plants and that many continued to grow in three's throughout their life, though not all. These are just people in random forums that came up in searches about the subject, so I don't know if it's correct. But I tend to believe people when they speak in this forum so I don't have any reason to not believe others. Everyone lies, but their are some good pictures of budding female trifoliates and I must say they are interesting. I was lucky to come across this one no matter what happens. My first grow had bud coming from the centers of leaves and now I have another oddity....and I have been growing a lot less than a lot of people here.


These are random pics of other peoples 3 coty plants that kept their trifoliate pattern and were non-hermy females, i'm getting excited/hopeful -

 

Thanks for the spell check CG! LOL


I can never remember the spelling on that one!


Tri-folitaes would indeed produce more yield, no need to explain further since you seem to be a smart cookie.


That's one of the reasons I think UBB's plants are examples of whorlled phyllotaxy [ ] and not true tri-foliates. Triploids are weaker in every aspect than a biploid of the same strain, grown in the same conditions.


That said, I have to throw this into the mix as well.


In all studies of polyploidism in cannabis, the polyploids were chemically induced. The unknown possible effect of chemically treated plants could be loss of vigor. But on the flip of the same coin, tetraploids from the same studies that were chemically induced in the same way, proved to be better than the original biploid! Something to chew on concerning this discussion.


Suffice to say, the studies of polyploidism in cannabis are few, and although the studies show a lot of similar observations, they also have some discrepancies. Hence the supremely interesting discussions on the topic.

 

You mean, triploids, right?

 

Colchicine is the chemical he speaks of....it's mentioned a few times above.


"Colchicine is a highly poisonous alkaloid, originally extracted from plants of the genus Colchicum (Autumn crocus, also known as the "Meadow saffron") "


In medicine it's used for several conditions including "Gout" but in Botany it's used to induce polyploidism by not allowing chromosome segragation during meiosis. After that happens half the gametes have no chromosomes and the others get double and those embryos have double chromosomes.


"While this would be fatal in animal cells, in plant cells it is not only usually well tolerated, but in fact frequently results in plants which are larger, hardier, faster growing, and in general more desirable than the normally diploid parents; for this reason, this type of genetic manipulation is frequently used in breeding plants commercially."


Interesting stuff....although I must say I doubt any of us would end up actually doing this, but ya never know. I wouldn't be surprised if Useless tried it.

 

Yes CG, I did mean triploids. Was slightly buzzed from a few at dinner last night...lol


And CG is spot on about the chemical. It is in fact colchicine. I have to strongly advise against anyone using this chemical. It WILL KILL YOU if handled improperly.

 

MA man!!!...lmao

I did actually MEAN to point this out to "Useless", and Useless i will try as i said, to phone my friend, and just to see iff he had his mapped out threading on his computer back up files or in general the print out , or "A" print out of ANY genetically Proven guides to how this was named and Proven out to be a POLYPLOID, but as i did say so before hand, lol, it was around 7 months since seeing him, though getting intpuch is np, but getting him "IN" the house is another thing....:qbluewacko: :5masked: :icon_confused: :rolleyes2:


Anyway, il do my God Damned BESt to try n get a PRINT OUT at least of the GENETICS of the SWAZZI and the cell count of the CELL-NUCLEUS and Genome count aswel, il do my BEST ma brotha, thats all i can do, aswel as put up a Cpl pics....


Rememebr that POLYPLOIDISM is very rare in a certain way, in the FACT it is NOT common to come across a POLY in any case, nevermind my luck in this one, and as you should know, Tetra-Foliate and Double genome Seedlings of POLYPLOIDISM is very HIGH in the MALE:icon_confused: -FEMALE ratio, and the POLY was claimed to be, by my *friend , that it was a SOMATICALLY enhanced, (NATURALL OCCURANCE in genetic's) obviousely, as none of us had heard of a POLYPLOID to start with, and certainly had no idea it could be "braught one", by human enhancement with ceratin Drugs, that i have just found out, through this thread and a little reading up on the "HUMAN ENHANCEMENT of POLYPLOIDISM"!!! (Extremely intereting subject on the HUMAN enducing of POLYPLOIDISM)


So to us , polys or tetra's or tri's, or anything at all......The Duplicational values of the naturally produced polyploidy i "HAD", Happened by "natural occurances",(SOMATIC Duplication of the Cell Chromosones) ..."so i was told",:rolleyes2: and the chromosones in these specific genetics of this SWAZZI seedling, resulted in duplication (No-MORE ) in the CHROMOSONES .


So my friend has told me, so all was NOT genetically enduced, but was specifically enhanced by "NATURAL" occurrances in SOMATIC cells Duplicating within themselves , and not humanly enhanced at all(Drug Enhanced)......


Exacuse the Spelling and shit Useless, my "BLUNT" was a little over packed!!!


P.S, Il TRY my BEST to get a COPY or a PRINT, (If still exists on record,lol, which Im sure it Should be, knowing HIM!..lol) of some sort of evidence/Show, on how he mapped out the DNA and the GENETICS of this specific POLYPLOID of a Swazzi-RedBeard :sign13:


Peace n Much Respect to you Useless my good friend,


UrBigBuddie....... :thumbsup:


P.S, The Genetics can be ENHANCED using certain DRUGS, CHOLCOSINE (Which interferes/prevents, "CELL DIVISION" )


MOST POLYPLOIDISM plants, were thaught to be braught on by HYBRIDISED GENETICS following CHROMOSONE Doubling!!!)


*There are other Drugs used to HELP produce/Enhance the production of POLYPLOIDISM with HUMAN Help, in such elements in COLCHOSINE,


P.S.S, The enhancement of POLYPLOIDS are now found to be UN-Reduced GEMATES and TRIPLOID bridges are a MAJOR source of Polyploid Formation! (A little extra in the BASIS and general know-all of how POLYPLOIDS come about, and how they can be enduced to become one by the use of certain DRUGS by the BIOLOGIST, to create such a plant in a POLYPLOID!!!)


Peace Out for now all,


Respect,


UrBigBuddie...... :thumbsup:

 

Useless is Growkind'z "Ed Rosenthal" & "Jack Herer"





I'm so glad to know that Useless is still here after all these years....YES!!!


Whenever Useless posts somethin'....you know I'll be one of the 1st to read up!





It's good to hear from ya again Useless....and we growkinders are definitely lucky to have you here!!!!


:XXsunsmile: ccasion5:

 

Soooo....does anyone have any idea why a plant would have three main branches/colas (naturally) and leaves also coming out in threes?????????

 

That's called a genetic variation CG. Basically, a single chromosome has developed a mutation, or variant.

 

Colchicine is the only way I know of to induce polyploidy in a biploid. I haven't read your post yet, but will get back to you and give ya some detailed instructions on it as soon as I can mate!

 

ns Terms!

WOED^^^^^^^


A Fucked up genome Phenotype of a certain strain! lol


Peace,


UBB.........pimp: otleaf: :thumbsup:


P.S, Keep it Up bro, Good to se ya back on de forums brotha!!! :thumbsup:

 

polyploidism


It is my understanding that if you have a triploid, it will be sterile because the cells have an extra set of chromosomes, and cannot pair it up so it fucks it all up. I know that bananas are triploid, and can not be propagated from seed.


In conclusion: triploids suck. not worth your time to grow them.


Polyploids are very very interesting though. Worth keeping.


NEG


Oh and how the fuck do i know this? I'm a environmental horticulture major....