I don't understand why guns are treated any differently than another potentially lethal weapon, the automobile. Before you can operate a motor vehicle on a public street, you must demonstrate that you are familiar with the rules of the road as well as the operation of the vehicle. Why not do the same with guns? Before you can purchase one, you must show you know how to use it and how to store it safely. A requirement to have an operator's license for a gun doesn't seem too unreasonable to me.
It isn't any different, but you got to have (philosophical, not political) Liberal judges for such a thing to be allowed. Cars are not mentioned specifically in the constitution, but weapons are.
They should get back to "helping" the mental health issue in this country. That would help stop alot of the violence. Also as Res says, LOCK YOUR WEAPONS UP!! Gun owners, oopps should say, LEGAL gunowners are not the problem. Almost all these tradgidies are done by people using guns ILLEGALLY!! That's the problem. And Hank, how can you say that guns are the problem? Maybe my guns are better behaved than most? I've had guns for the last 35 years including Ak47 and high capicity handguns. None of my guns have jumped out of my safe and shot or killed anybody. So how are guns to blame again? People that want to do damage are going to do damage. What about the asshole that plowed his car through a parade? Was his car to blame? What about Mcvie or however you spell his name. You can still get fertlizer, you can still get fuel and you can still rent a truck. He killed a lot of people and seriously hurt more. I like my "assualt", just what the hell does that mean? ANYTHING you use against another person is an "assualt weapon". Now back to what I was saying, I like my "assualt rifle" because it's a fucking blast to shoot. I wouldn't use it to hunt. Gas is running low. Should we ban fast cars because they use to much of it? They are only good for fun and oh my God, you can break the law while driving them. God I hate these arguements. It's NOT THE GUNS FAULT! IT'S THE MORONS WHO USE THEM ILLEGALLY!!! Ban all guns and only the criminals will have them. Let's see what kind of mess we have after that. Assholes who will be able to commit any fucking crime they want. And the police? There are sections of this country that police WILL NOT go in. Do you think these people have LEGAL guns? Most crimes committed with guns are committed using ILLEGAL GUNS!!! How much more can you make illegal about it. Most crimes committed with guns are already breaking a shitload of laws. This discussion is pretty funny being on a board where most of us are committing an illegal act that would carry a harsher penalty than if I shot somebody. Why? Because they won't prosecute you fully on all the weapons charges. If they inforced the thousands of gun laws on the books already, things like this wouldn't happen.
We need more of this: Guns kill? and this: Then we have the media and government doing "Fast & Furious." and sometimes just plain ol' common sense: and it all comes down to this: That should just about cover it.
I get really tired of these arguments too, because the pro-gun side just repeats the same weak 4 or 5 talking points. 1. Guns don't kill people. People kill people. While technically correct, it completely ignores the gun's role as a force multiplier. What if I said, The atomic bomb didn't blow up Hiroshima, the guy that dropped the bomb did. Pointless obfuscation, in my opinion. Without the bomb, the city wouldn't have been annihilated. 2. The gun guy will then say, well if the American army wanted to go in and destroy Hiroshima they didn't need a bomb, they could have gone in and done it with bullets and hand grenades. Sure, but the bomb makes it easier and quicker just like guns do with mass shootings, and loads of other gun homicides. (This is the "If someone wants to kill, they will. With or without guns" argument.) 3. Lots of other things can kill too. Should we ban cars, knives, sharp pencils, etc...? Those other things have lots of other uses. Besides hunting, guns are used for target shooting and shooting people. Their uses are pretty limited. Bombs can kill too, and poison gas. True, but these things are highly controlled and/or illegal to own, and furthermore, no one is advocating for the right to possess them or thinks they should be more widespread in society. 4. If it becomes a crime to own guns, only criminals will have guns. / There are too many guns already present to do anything about them. This line of thinking is totally fatalistic. I believe lots of beneficial things could be done. The only thing lacking is the will to try. For the record, I'm not 100% anti-gun. I am pro-hunting. I just think guns, other than rifles or shotguns for hunting, need to be much more strictly controlled. MUCH more. And the manufacture of guns needs to be restricted, and there need to be limits on types, amounts you can buy/own concerning guns and ammo, both. And stricter licensing and stricter registration of guns, etc... Above all that, the goal of society and government should seek to GREATLY reduce the number and availability of guns in society. That should be the focus, first and foremost. Now the pro-gun side, in rebuttal, will repeat the same talking points I just listed. Yeah. :read2:
Unless you decide to reply to my thoughts. Hank...you're cherry picking the typical points. What do you see as a politically feasible, reasonably enforceable, effort that would actually make a difference?
Bullshit I'm cherry picking. I was directly addressed, for the second time, so I responded (to the typical points, which it seems is all there ever is). Don't try to give me a hard time. The pro-gunners always call me out directly, ignoring others who say the same or similar things. As far as "politically feasible, reasonably enforceable, efforts", what you and someone else (can't remember who off the top of my head) said - Holding the gun owner responsible for what happens with his/her gun, enforcing locks and lockers (which should be common sense, obviously, but sadly aren't), and increased training and licensing are all great ideas. I did also mention some things I think should be done in my last post, whether you think those things are feasible or enforceable is another matter. My main point is that there needs to be a massive shift in public opinion. The main focus, the future we want to see 50 years down the road, is a massive reduction in the number of firearms manufactured, for starters, and consequently present and available in society. America needs a paradigm shift in their thinking about private ownership of guns. Restrict their manufacture, in number and kind, reduce the places where they can be bought and sold, limit their importation, increase the price of guns and bullets, stricter registration, licensing, mental health checks, etc... Basically, for me, it comes down to limiting them to hunting purposes as much as possible, and making them much more expensive and harder to get, while trying to reduce the ones already out there though buy back programs, etc... :read2:
Wow just wow. You guys are hostile. I just read through this thread it started off ok but then crashed. Canada has more guns per capita so why does the imaginary line make a difference. R E S P E C T welcome to 'merica we got none and it shows. The talking points are moot. You will never effectively take guns off the streets of america there is no real count of guns that actually exist here. Some are made in hobbyist setting with no serials no count tax tags NOTHING. But we don't hear of those weapons being used on people. Sad but true. What about all the assault weapons in circulation? Is the government going to pay for the private property remuneration ? That's a big check. If you think people will just turn in $2k AR chambered in .22-250 and custom $4k MP5 you've lost your mind. I would however trade for some acreage from one of the national forests, just saying. AP to answer your question yes if the government tried to round up all the "assault weapons" there would be mass uprisings seriously. You see how fired up people get at just the talk of having to stop buying new guns let alone give up what we got. It has nothing to do with hunting this is AMERICA we want what we want in the land of Cash Rules Everything Around Me... Steelnuts
Long ass post guy strikes again-Stoned ponderings really. Oh i DO get it ,i do. I know the value of the constitution and bill of rights to you guys.You were a nation born out of rebellion and war,fighting oppression and thats why caviats were enshrined like the 2nd amendmant.Back in them days there WERE enemies bith firgeign and domestic,there were states not fully supportive or loyal to the union so it makes snese why the right to bear arm was put in thee.Also the fact the wild west and Americas wildernesses were still being pioneered fully and tamed as they settled.There were many valid reasons why guns were essential and i suppose many can successfully argue why there still are valid resons.Liten if i lived out in Texas with my boy im telling ya im gonna have a 12 gauge in a locked case and im gonna have a clip nd pitol nearby in the home too. I KNOW if a 2nd amendment right was to be gradually eroded then whats next the 5th?As a brit i fuckin admire the right to plead the 5th:icon_salut: But i just think normal sane intellectual people all of a sudden turn into rootin tootin cowboys or pop a cap in your ass charicatures whenever gun debates arise. No way in this or the next lifetime if at all,will they ever fuck with the right to bear arms,you guys got that locked down but the spin doctors say "ooh if we concede anything we lose everything" when in reality i think in the end if people like the NRA cant sit down sensibly cross party talks,as HUMANS,as PARENTS,with victims familes then their doing their cause moore harm than good.You guys are right,how you gonna legislate for 70 odd million guns,most untraceable?You cant.But maybe assault rifles and ammo like what that guy had shouldnt be sold in wallmart so dheaply and easily. You guys all sound responsible,Res does,i know Joe teaches his girl to resspect and use a firearmmetc. And i know you guys aint all anti-liberal.Theres got to be a happy medium,i have no idea how and no matter what theres always gonna b e unhappy people.The assault rifle ban lapsed,why not to at least be seen to do something do they not renew it.Iv seen the guns you guys can buy,very pretty and im sure in the right hands are more deadl than assault rifles in the wrong hands. If you go hunting with heavy weaponry then introduce some kind of permits only for farmers,hunters and licenses homeowners out in the sticks.Do people in cities really need assault rifles? Shotgund and pistols are more than enough to defend your home.Shit i feel safe and secure knowing there a heavy pound claw hammer in the toolbox,lol. Hey if i come to America and im smoking at one you guys places in the ghetto or the sticks or just out in the great outdoors,im hoping you guys are carrying a piece purely cos i know other cranks are wandering around with a piece lol.But i cangt help feel as though half the gunowners have had it engrained if they dont have guns they are impotent against tryanny,which cant be true cos tyranny is going on daily over there and i dont see militias shooting up wall street lol.I know you guys cherish your freedoms but can we not tighten the noose a little.Make gun shops more stringent.I read the other day in one state you can buy a ton of ammo and an assault rifle with very little ID but other states you have to jump through hoops?Introduce some uniformity in all states.Limigt ammo.Who needs 4000 rounds of ammo when he dont hunt,go to a range or live in sticks? Im not anti gun but i firmly believe the right wing nutters that hijacked your Rep party are giving good gun owners a bad name.Theres got to be discussions,some concession.A 5 year ban on assault rifles to see if ti stops them being used in mass shootings.People that already own them can keep them secure at home.Stop letting walkmart sell ammo n shit.Make people go to the realdeal gun shops,get checked out proper.Limit crazy amounts of ammo.The day they try take away yur guns over there is the day you guys will need them and want t use them but that day may never come.In the meantime each time this happens we all rue and lament it and people post their bullshit FB pictures like it makes a difference.All i know is if my kid was killed in that school i think my pride in my son being more important than my political views,traditional family views or whatever would take a back seat to my compassion.Bill Maher said it on twitter the other day that the Gun Lobby are selfish and while im not qualified to give opinion.I can see that theres no need for each house to have enough guns for a seal team 6 mission to take out Osama. Few handguns and 12 gaug will protect the homestead. Cary conceals and the whole culture in general to me feels like a culture of fear where everyone is scared whose packing heat so they got to go pack bigger or more heat until it becomes a macho thing or a throwback to the wild west.Protect you and yours by all means but be sensible about it.Res always makes snese when we have these debates and i only wish the rest of the right wing NRA dudes could see theres got to be measures,no matter how small. I have no wish for you guys to give up your right o guns,i live in the UK and we dont need them,they just aint part of our daily life and its huge news if theres a shooting but mostly its crims shooting crims and civilians are kept out it. America kept guns in case the euro nations including UK or even south american bandiit coutnires tried to instigate an uprising.The south was always viewed with suspicio,etc so there were militas and with most towns controlled by mob mentality rather than the law then guns were needed.But today?Terrorists both feriegn and domestic have been pillaging america from within for years and they do it from ivory towers but no ones gonna take them out to replenish the tree of liberty. Guns for that purpose are defunct.We dont even see the domestci terrorists murderous actions but yet its going on daily. So that means guns are purely for pwrsonal protection in my eyes and thats fair enough.But if yur gun gets used ina mnass shiting then you do the time cios that means you didnt take precautions to stop your kid getting access to the guns to kill people.If i was there in USA,Callum would never know where i kept the guns,he wouldnt even know i had guns cos the only time im pulling a gun is the time its getting used. I just wish people would stop thinking about MY rights MY this and MY that and be grateful they werent crying the other day saying MY KID DIED.Until any of us deal with what them poor kids and familes deal with then we never truly know how we feel.Is anyone gonna seriously say if their kid,god forbid,was caught up in that they wouldnt think maybe its time to restrict the too easy accessibility of guns and ammo Again,i would have a gun if im living outside a city,no where near copland and its just me and my boy.But i honestly wouldnt feel the need to own assault rfiles unless i had a purpose for them.Thats no dig at anyone who does BTW cos iv stated before iv learned to know all my guns from Call of Duty and id like to fire of an MK14,anAK47 and a FAD,etc just to see the recoil and the kick.But for me,the firing range is the ideal place.If people enjoy firing them then do it in a firing range legally but stop selling them for 5 years and lets see if it makes any difference. Last thing,all i hear is" he had mental health issues",so do millions but he also played call of duty,if he didnt have mental health issues would the gun lobby be campaigning against COD glorifyng death by gun?Its a QUAGMIRE i dont wish to step into but i just think if your gonna have guns then be sensible about it.I keep hearing NRA type FB pages saying Israel teachers ahve guns,that wasnt true.I also hear them quoting how switzerland have lots of guns and no trouble but thats niot wuite the same as their gyns are from national service where they lern to respect the gun.I know you guys respect guns and the culture and its your heritage and im not one to deride anothers heritage as i wouldnt like it done to me but surely the moist badass gun owner out of you on this site can see the time has come for some sort of compromise? A 5 year assault ban is my idea and i like resin suggesting every gun owner should have the lockks he has.We know guns dont kill people but what are we gonna do about stopping the people who use the guns get easy accessIm of to bed and hope none of you took this is as me starting the dead horse debate again,im just wasted and thought id try explain that theres ALWAYS room fopr middle ground.Peace outfftheair:
Therein lies the problem. A rational gun advocate asks a rational question to find common ground and all kinds of wishful not gonna happen in our lifetime, some believe shouldn't, thinking comes bubbling up. As soon as the extremes are brought to the table all else fails. It's exactly this type of talk and end focus that unites the gun lobby against any change whatsoever. IMHO, we gun owners and Second Amendment advocates need to be the ones bringing ideas to the table rather than reacting hoping nothing gets shoved down our throats. To do otherwise allows the folks who envision an end similar to Hank's will be left to shape the argument and subsequent legislation.
As i was writing a loooooong ass ramble while stoned basically trying to say what you just summed up prefectly in a short post.If the compromise comes from you guys then you have the higher ground but stick heads in the sand and that only works for so long.Good post res:thumbsup:
:roffl: Hey, try to be little more full of yourself. Lol. Your suggestions, while good, are like putting a band-aid on what needs a tourniquet. The extremes didn't just get brought up. They are what currently exist in America.
Ok dude :bong-2: but the way you're rambling about is the exact polarity of the cats who want everybody to own full autos without any private party registration. You think THEY sound rational and cooperative on the issue? Start with what has a chance. Leave the wishful dreamland crud in dreamland where it belongs.
(I'm being good and not arguing MrA ) TA, I can sum up how I feel and you kinda touched on it on your rant...it's my right to own one, my family has fought many wars for this country for my right to do such...i know zombies aren't coming anytime soon and ar-15 style weapons are a bit of overkill..but it's my right to own one (well tech not right now, but soon I will be able to own them again) ar-15s aren't needed but neither are corvettes, you can do the same with a mini cooper as you can with a vette, but a lot of people still want to show off and buy a vette it's about vanity and our rights, kinda like telling someone to fuck off Hank, my bad I'm in full agreement with AJ also, I would love to see a comprehensive unbiased report about the recent mass murders to exactly what they were on, or took previously
That makes sense. I never understood why the gun show loop-hole was tollerated in the first place. And this whole fully automatic assault rifle stuff has gone way past bedtime when incidents like what happened in Conn. happen and keep happening. I'm as pro-gun as any 2nd Amendment supporter but just like there are limitations on other rights there should be limitations on the right to bare arms also. I own a semi-auto but since I'm not planning on going on a Call of Duty Modern Warfare rampage or shoot a rap video with it I'm cool with it not leaving my home especially since it's to defend my home and I don't think anyone is talking about making people turn their guns in or anything. I just hope my fellow 2nd Amendment enthusiasts begin to see the light. Whether they do or not change is coming and I think they better get comfortable with it because I don't think they want any of the drama involved with an insurrection. The government dosen't either but think they'd win.
I have a perfect example of going too far with the legislation: I was listening to a radio show and the recent shooting was the subject. Someone called in and suggested that the police should be able to pop up at gun owners houses at random to check and see if they have their firearms secured. I was like wow! I mean common sense legislation is one thing but that's going too far! If someone had asked me to brainstorm on ways to start an uprising that would be like in the top 5 on the list. Unbelievable!
Let's split the difference: If you'll admit that a gun cannot go on a rampage by itself I'll admit that the unreasonable, irresponsible, and wrong-minded mentality of the NRA, the gun lobby, and the gun manufacturers has dominated the debate on guns and has contributed to incidents like the mass shooting in Conn. and other shootings and deaths that didn't make the news. I think that's fair.
Appreciate the position BP....but as an advocate you NEED NEED NEED to get this one right. It's semi automatic. One trigger pull, one shot. Just like your pistol. Fully automatic weapons are tightly controlled and not part of normally available weaponry to the average enthusiast or gun buyer. By making this mistake in generalization you're missing a fine but emotionally charged misunderstood part of the equation and actually aiding those who seek to misrepresent the truth.
