A thought entered my mind by reading one of SDs' responses in another thread. There was mention of morals of our top officials. I too have qeustions about the morality of our leaders. But I pose a question that was asked to me by a democrat? What are family values and morals? We were talking about the past election and she asked me why I thought Bush got re-elected. I spurted out..."family values and morals". Then she asked me what that meant....I hade a difficult time answering it. Can anyone explain to me what family values are? And dont they differ from family to family? How could they have swayed an election?
Probably the single biggest family morality issue of the election IMO was the whole Gay marriage deal. Most of us rednecks are not down with it, and obviously it made people vote. Next would have to be the whole seperation of church,and state deal. Many folks percieve this as part of the cause of many of the social problems we have as a country. Third would probably be abortion, and the potential for a new supreme court justice. Not to mention a bunch of other smaller issue's. Not all democrats are for the aforementioned , but the democrat party IMO doesn't really represent the blue collar democrats of old,anyway, not even remotely. My opinion of the democrat party is akin to a den of theives. JFK, I doubt would have been party to this party.
OK....I can see how the gay marriage thing might have had an impact....But is that a 'family' value or a moral issue? After thinking about it I wondered if I could think of one. I remember as a child....and to the day, that we all eat as a family together. Sametime, sameplace. Now I would consider that a good family value...but somethin tells me that isnt the one that won the election. Im just curious to everyones definition of values.
Good question Tibs, have wondered that very same thing. Wish I could give you an accurate answer to that question bro but the odds of that are slim. Family values do differ from family to family as you said and to be honest with you thats one of the reasons we didnt vote Bush or Kerry this time around. Where I come from money was sparse, we shared what we had. Yes we were a dysfunctional Italian family in many ways no doubt about it but let me tell you we shared what we had(food, money, clothes) with each other and others, period. The greediness of our leaders these days sickens me my friend. Is it really nessecary? thats my question. How can a poor southern boy realistically support those who worship money over human lives or human comradary even. Tibs if you dont mind I'd like to add a question to this excellent thread as well. As you said: What are family values?(good question) AND along those same lines Where does Incessant Greed fit into family values in any way shape or form?...thats my question
Tibs, I feel that these words were used to divide our nation.... the association of the words "family values and morals" with the repub party sent many christian dems running towards the red administration. You see, if you don't side with those screaming about their strong morals and values, then you're a heathen (terrorist, atheist, or any other negative term you can think of). The marriage issue was a farce..... Gays only wanted to be recognized as married couples so that those who wish to enjoy the "perks" of marriage (spousal health coverage, estate rights upon the death of a partner-concerning joint assets, and so on). Had the govt. and large corps decided to offer the benefits to gay employees, there would have never been the issue of gay marriage. But the moral majority said no to the benefits unless you're MARRIED... Similarly, opposition to the anti terrorist legislation (ie-Patriot Act) gives the impression that you are "un american". As for my definition of "family values & morals", I think it means that you take care of your own.... If they're sick, you heal them; if they are hungry, you feed them; naked, you clothe them; ignorant, you educate them... It's nothing like our current admin's stance on morals & values.... Wish I had more time to discuss this topic, but time is of the essence for me at this point.... I hope the thoughts weren't too jumbled.... I'm just late for a meeting, but I wanted to share..... Good topic Tibs, I look forward to more opinions.
I am not sure how to define something that can't be defined. Morals and values are as different as people themselves are. You can't lump them all together...especially not in a country like ours where we have such a diverse people making up the polulation. I'd have to side with Racer there...it was a ploy to get the 'Christian right' to the polls. I know that was my mom's reason....she's got her head so far up Bush's ass on 'values' it makes me sick. To the point of ignoring anything else he says and does. What are Bush's values anyway? Haven't seen any yet. BTW...same goes for all politicians. They're all a bunch of crooks that will tell you what you want to hear just to get your vote...plain and simple. That's the only thing of 'value' to them in this day and age.
Yeah, I think it's all about the Us vs. Them mentalitiy that is heightened during election time. Two party politics, right vs. left, good vs. evil. We're all doomed anyway. You mine as well sit back and just watch the circus and try to be happy with yourself and your own adventure in life. I don't really understand why gay people want to get married, as I'd assume a lot of them to question the flaws of marriage anyway. I understand wanting the same benefits of straight couples. I'd like to see the institution of marriage pass on, honestly. We just have a good deal of people still living the past with conservative Christian American values, even if they aren't the type to attend church or take the Bible literally. They still have some of those ideals in them... it's that whole fear of a massive buttfucking gay drugged out sodom and gomorrah orgy. I think before that happens we will get nuked by one set of pissed off people or another as a direct/indirect result of western involvement in the destruction and complex alteration of those people's traditional way of living, if that makes any sense. no matter what we're screwed, and idiots will always be in charge, Dems, Reps, Republicrats, supervillains, super-manipulative cyborg leaders with massive digital brainwashing campaigns via implanted chips. whatever. I'll be dead before the worst happens... hopefully.
To me family morals and values means this. man and women legally married. family comes first, wife and husband stay home at night and spend time with family. Wife stays home while husband provides. children are very important to couple and they have 2+. Couple gets along with inlaws and own family. family goes out and does things together. Also family attends religious services of some sort. Does this make sense? The term 'Family morals and values' implys tradition and seems a bit old fashioned. Butt thats just me. Excellent question tibs.
Excellent question Tibs...wow morals and values are so differ depending on the family. There is no right or wrg way ....more like tradition I guess. Family values to me are love, doing things together as a family but also letting a memeber of the family know it's OK to do things on own as well. Also honesty with one another and communication being a key factor. I tell my girls all the time that no matter what they do they can come to me and this way I can help them...I certainly can't help if I do not know the situation. Eating dinner togother is also a biggie to me...just time to exchange feelings and the "how was your day" kind of thing. We live such busy lives and it is important to make sure you set time aside for your family or loved ones. Quality time is more important then quantity....you don't have to be up each other's butt 24/7. :LOL: With children....alwys have a ear to listen...they may be "lil ppl" but have so much to say if you do listen closely. And for parenting...I think putting down the chores to go have fun now and then with your children would best be remembered then alwys barking orders OR saying I am too busy. Being a mommy, aunt, uncle, cousin or frd is my most important job when it comes to children as they are our future & they see thru us as we can see thru them. Spending time helping them discover who they are is critical.....ignoring them or their feelings can leave a huge impact which is one I choose not to leave. So I guess to me it is spending quality time, communication & loving them unconditionally for how big or little mistakes we make as ppl. Morals....well I live by 3. Don't lie, steal or cheat! Respect of self and others important as well!
I find it incredibly alarming that some would hinge the success of Bush's re-election on "Family Values and Morals"...this is a catch phrase, nothing more, nothing less...if there was any substance to this catch phrase...the U.S. under the leadership (or lack thereof) of Dubya would not be killing innocents in Iraq...that's where morals come out to play...the distinction between right and wrong, and the concern of the principles of what constitutes right conduct...so if you agree with that, then I believe it is safe to say you agree that the occupation of Iraq is immoral...unless you support the killing of innocent Iraqi civilians...that's where Bush and I part ways...morally sound, Bush...yea, right...what the **** ever... Now on to the evasive lil'til thing we call values...values do differ from one social setting to another...this is true...but values from one culture can sometimes and many times do mimic other cultures,...so it is safe to say that some values are inherent in many different cultures...probably because at the end of the day we all put our pants on the same way...kapeesh...so values can be skewed due to variant criteria...I don't like this any more than you do...but back to Bush...his idea of "Family Values" are warped something fierce...here's where my favorite word applies...facade...Dubya's facade to his dysfunctionality is alarming at the minimum...how does one champion "family values" while washing down that pretzel with a whiskey and coke...keep in mind this facade was pre-born-again Bushy...once he found God...and Jesus, he was on to much grander callings...so it's safe to say the facade became a tool in George's toolbox...if he is saved...that means he is righteous....that means he doesn't lie, steal or cheat...puh-leeze...I've said enough...hope that clears things up a tad for ya' Tibs...PC (Edited by Professor ChumLeaf at 11:44 am on Jan. 14, 2005) (Edited by Professor ChumLeaf at 11:46 am on Jan. 14, 2005) Got love dem' edits...ha! (Edited by Professor ChumLeaf at 11:47 am on Jan. 14, 2005) (Edited by Professor ChumLeaf at 11:48 am on Jan. 14, 2005)
Not really DC, you rambled on about other cultures, and **** , but you totally walked off the subject,and started ranting about bush. But with you it is the common denominator of all your posts. He did win the election,and values did play a role. Killing innocent Iraqi's did not equate to family values. You sure you weren't on the democrat payroll?
FAMILY: A group of individuals of common ancestry living under one roof and usually under one head(of household) VALUES: I found no definition for the word "values" in the Merriam-Webster dictionary. I did find a definition for the word "value" however there was no plural description of the word meaning, if Im reading the dictionary correctly, "values" is in fact NOT a word at all. VALUE: relative worth, utility or importance. MORALS: "Moral" practices or teachings, codes of conduct. Which in turn led me to the word... ETHICS: The priciples of conduct governing an individual or a group; a guiding philosiphy. Now considering "values" is not even a word, again if Im reading the dictionary correctly that is... Im pressed to wonder if the phrase "family values" is in fact a phrase created by Fundementalist Christians? EDIT: reading closer I did find a plural version of the word value. However it pertained to Mathematical Equations for example: let X take on specific values within the equation. Nothing to do with family whatsoever. Would love to hear some input on this, and any corrections I may be WAY off base here. (Edited by SD at 1:41 pm on Jan. 14, 2005)
There is no plural of the word in the Dictionary except pertaining to mathematical equations NB...For example "values" of X, Y, Z in algebra or trig. they give no other definition for the plural form of value than that. (Edited by SD at 1:45 pm on Jan. 14, 2005)
Good points all around folks.....now let me put down the doob and see if I can make sense. I see most of the values and morals you all stated had a similar tone to it. Family seemed to come first. Take care of your own. I believe Racer hit the nail on the head in his post about his ideas of values. SD....the greed of money IMO is what will bring this country to its knees and make us all realize that money isnt the answer to everything. The way society now teaches us is that the standard of good living is determined by how much money you make. This isnt something I want to pass down to my kiddo....but Im afraid im too late! Family values cant be bought....although, like me, I believe many parents and families have spoiled their offspring by buying things to make them happy. This is a trait that I would like to curb personaly. But being that money so intertwined in our society....that what makes it so difficult to live without. Even for the basic neccesities that we use everyday. It would be easier for me to buy a gift for my kiddo or my ol lady....but what does that do? It pleases them until their bored with it....and then its something new they want. Its getting the 'want' out of the equation that I believe will be the biggest hurdle. Do you want it.....or do you need it? Most of us get what we want....but isnt it better to want what we already have? Now I cant say that much of what I have said makes much sense.....I have troubles still answering my own question. A few nights back....I was watching a program about the Vietnemese. Now those people have good values. They get by with no money or very lil. I was shocked to see the kids working in the rice patties with smiles on there faces...brothers, sisters, cousins, moms, aunts, uncles, and fathers were all doing it together. Man....I cant even get my ol lady to water the garden without some sort of argument:LOL: My point is....They were happy to have what they have....they all lived together, took care of each other, and each learned the way from there families. They dont get paid to do what they do....they do it to look out for each other. Its almost as if greed isnt part of their culture or upbringing. As the show ended....one of the elders of the tribe...handed a gift to the youngest of the kids....it was a hand carved elephant widdled by him. The look of joy on her face was of complete happiness. Compare that to the way US does things....why make it....when you can buy it? So SD to answer your question the best I can.....I believe incessant greed plays a role in our values because thats the way our society has taught us. Jesus....it prolly started back after the depression. I believe the rougher times in life is where our true values and morals are seen....and taught for that matter! Now I know Im a good parent....I try to raise my child and run my family the way my folks did. is nice....but its not everything. If the US gets brought to its knees tommorow...what the hell is the money gonna do to get me and my family by. Nothing. When the infrastructure of our country fails....and we cant get all these possesions that we have today....I think the ONE constant that we all have is our families. And its important to not lose sight of that. DVDs' come and go....cars are bought and sold...but family is always there.
Excellent post Tibs, what more can be said. Youve explained it far better than most of us could as of yet. When all is said and done family is the only thing we really have other than ourselves this is true. Material things only please or solve our personal dilemmas for so long which is a statement you could easily direct at the current administration of our Government. Let me ask you this, would the idea of this country being lead by those who value: the people, family, clean air and water, ethical business practices, assertive rather than overly aggresive approaches toward foreign policy & affairs appeal to you? We've come to the conclusion that "do you want it or do you need it?" is a large issue not only amongst government but also amonget the people. I personally love this country, however that very statement needs to be directed toward our so called leaders IMHO. This excessive greed and want is exactly whats detriorating foreign affairs and belief in government by people like myself. We are tired of hailing a chief whose main concern is MONEY and POWER. We as a nation need leaders who can see the value of the people, family, a clean & healthy planet in which for us to live, and of a military that is highly prepared not thrown in the faces of those who posses what we want. Paranoia, greed, self obsession and hunger for power are bad traits in a leader yet we seem to embrace and promote such people into office. Greed will be our downfall it has consumed most every GREAT civilized nation in the past. It will eventually consume and destroy us. In the past a GOOD chief led with wisdom, morality and a true love in his heart for the people and their needs. His idea wasnt to do what he thought would appease the people or to mislead them in any way so he could do as he pleased while committing crimes of morality or against the law behind their backs all due to his lack of self control and self preservation concerning "wants". He knew what wants were and what needs were no questions asked. When was the last time we followed or had the oppurtunity to admire a truly GOOD chief in this country?
QUOTE Let me ask you this, would the idea of this country being lead by those who value: the people, family, clean air and water, ethical business practices, assertive rather than overly aggresive approaches toward foreign policy & affairs appeal to you? Absolutly SD. Without a doubt. Im about as republican as it gets. But I want every quality in a president as you stated above. But at what lengths can we take to find someone like that? Nadar? On this last election....I will be honest....I voted party lines. Both options werent great. But i voted republican because im republican. I know that sounds\is partisan...and frowned on by some, but I just couldnt see a future with Kerry. Now all that is over we have the same pres....not gonna change. But what, as a nation, can we do to find that one guy\girl that will please to all parties? Lincoln comes to mind. But he wouldnt stand a chance in todays society. It all has to do with campaign financing....which leads back to the money. Back in abes day....money wasnt and issue. And IMO as long as money is the power player in the equation we will never have the luxury of finding the "one" who supports what we as a nation are about. Getting money out of politics is a bigger war than any of us can fathom. And getting true family values and morals in is an even bigger step. The founding fathers setup things beautifully IMO.....but somewhere in the history of our country.... bought influence. And that is where values changed. I was always taught and believe that history repeats itself. This nation needs...sorry to say...to go back a few steps to continue forward. May it be a civil strife, or all out an ethnic war...it seems to me that the people are the ones who will get the country back on track. I hope it is in my lifetime....but there will need to be a leader that will unite us in such a way that we were when our ancestors created this country. Values and morals are the reason so many people came to this country...then bam....they found out that they could make money here. When did we change into a capitalistic society? Im sorry....with a topic like this, it can be hard to stick to the point. Morals and values pertain to so much that it cant be defined....like herb said I believe. So yes...it would appeal to me to have a leader that was conscious of clean air, a relaxed foreign policy, and a true leader with good family values.
I think the foundation of good morals and values is instilling generosity, respect for others, self reliance, empathy and a strong sense of community early in life. I belive there are too many people dependent on others and the system in this country because they have learned or found it is easier to take than to provide for ones own self.
tibs the country was sold out during the "created" stock market crash of 1929 it was a calculated move.
