"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to AlienBait again." Thanks for keeping it civil. I respect that a great deal.
I try to be civil most of the time. Thank you. otleaf-3: Now, back to your suggestions about controlling handguns. I went back in the thread and found your post. Here it is with my comments (Your comments are in yellow): It's the handguns that everyone runs around with that cause all the problems. They don't cause the problems, but they are what most criminals choose to use when they choose a gun. I wouldn't ban them. First, were I able, I'd work on severely reducing the amount sold in the US every year with an eye to limiting the number in circulation. Well, since I think more responsible folks should own guns, I disagree. The data that I have presented earlier has convinced me (if not you) that it is not the number of guns in circulation that creates criminals or is the cause of violent crime. Place limits on the gun making companies. I disagree, see statement above. Also, make it so that handguns and bullets are more expensive. I disagree here also. Poor people should be able to protect themselves just as much as rich people. Make everyone register their guns. Already exists, though I disagree with this as well. If the government knows what you have, the could come take it away when they feel like it. A good example of this is what happened in New Orleans after Huricane Katrina. Limit the number of guns one could legally own. Hmmm... I might go along with this, if the number was around 50. Make the purchasing process longer and more difficult. Perhaps a long course that would need to be taken and passed before one could purchase a gun. Already exists (at least in California). The last time I bought a gun, I had to read a book, take a test, wait 2 weeks to get my gun and then show the gun dealer that I knew how to operate it. I don't know why you want a "long" course. Other than that statement, I don't have a problem here. I like what Cali is doing. See Rasganja's post about that. I do not like it. Only 2 boxes? That is only 40 bullets. The last time I went shooting, I went through around 500 bullets. Automatic firing machine gun types would be banned outright. Already exists, unless you register with the federal government and get a permit. I don't have a problem with this one. Mandatory long prison terms for anyone caught with or using an illegal gun. I agree. I would also add a long prison term for some one committing a crime even with a legally obtained gun. I would create space in the penal system by releasing all the non-violent drug offenders and then legalizing all drugs. I sort of agree. Not ALL drugs should be legal. Crack and Meth should stay illegal. Also, severe penalties for anyone whose gun is stolen from them without having a serious trigger lock or something on it. I don't agree completely. If you have a gun for home protection, you will want it ready to use, without having to fumble with trying to find a key, insert the key and unlock the gun. Now, if you have kids in the house, you should lock up your guns, and in California, it is illegal to have a gun easily accessible to minors. A lock box with a quick combination lock would be better. I have one of these: http://www.gandermountain.com/modperl/product/details.cgi?r=view&i=426256&aID=508R&cID=GSHOP Also, people's thinking would need to change, so education programs in the schools. Teach kids that guns are a dangerous weapon that need to be locked up and put away when not in use I think that is the parents' job. However, in California they do teach that in schools.
All this and I just thought what Ted wrote was funny and wanted to share it with everyone. That'll teach me to open a can of worms.
People are very pationate about Guns, Religion, and Politics. Except for the personal attacks, I thought it was a good discussion. otleaf-3:
I was going to leave this thread alone now, but something happened today 12 people have been shot dead and 25 injured by one man in Cumbria today. One man, just one and a few guns! A massacre!!! This is the UK and this DOESNT happen here. 12 fucking people! This might be commen in the US, but not here. A man with a knife or a hammer or any other tool you might like to think of would not have killed 12 and injure 25, but a man with a gun can and very eaily too! Ah but, if granny was packing she would have took him out. Yeah right, bullshit! But this is my main point. Today 2010 Dumblaine was 1997 and the first mass gun killing in the uk was 1987. Them dates may be slightly wrong. Why do you think we have so few mass rampages? US school kids seem to do it for lolz.
My heart goes out to the family and friends of those involved in this latest shooting. I wanted to make that clear first and foremost. Nobody should be subject to this kind of brutality. Having said that....Skuzz..I see this whole thing from a different angle. If the UK has such great anti-gun laws then how in the HELL did a man such as this get his hands on guns? It just proves the point that no matter the laws...if a person wants a gun he will get one. Laws don't do shit if a person is unwilling to abide by them. Case in point. People will do what people will do. Guns are part of our world now. Unless you can find a way to get rid of ALL guns you will never stop things like this from happening. (I heard he used a shotgun...most claim handguns are the problem) Gun laws don't stop people from killing other people with guns. I think your view of the US is skewed as well. I've lived here for 40 years and not once have a seen something like this happen close to me and I live an area that has a VERY high concentration of gun ownership. I just don't buy it my man. If your rationale were correct then things like this would be happening all around me and they don't. Charlie....gun laws still don't help. Maybe you all need to have better counseling....sounds like this guy needed that more than gun laws.
It looks as though the guns he used were 100% legal. He's had a license for 32 years. Ive already said gun laws will not stop ppl owning guns. I know of several illegal fire arms in my area. My point is, is that the UK gun control is working. The UK has had 3 major gun massacres in 24 years. The US seems to have one every year or 2. Not to mention the thousands of single or double murders by guns that occur regularly over there. Im not saying the US is crawlling with mental gun slingers out to kill everything in site. Im saying the availability of guns increases gun deaths. We have thousands of mentally unstable ppl in the UK, just like the US does. Just the ones in the US have guns, thats fucking scary!!!!! The gun crime in the UK equates to 0.03% of all crime. I dont have a figure for the US but I bet its massive compared to the UK. Your murder rates is massive compared to the UK and thats all down to guns. I know you all love your guns. I bet their a right good laugh to shoot. If I went to the US id love a try, but theres no way in hell id want the UK to relax our laws. Gun availablility is directly linked to gun death figures. You cant argue that and thats my only point. Lax gun laws = lots of dead people!
Point well made Skuzz. One has to wonder what the stats are in the UK concerning death by other means though. Maybe deaths related to guns are lower but are deaths related to other forms of weapons higher or lower? My point is that if someone wishes to kill another person the means to do so is endless. Guns are just one way of doing so. Sure....our deaths by guns may be higher but it could very well be that deaths related to other forms of weapons here in the US is much lower than the UK (per capita). It's all a matter of perspective as I said. If some crazy fucker like this guy wants to go kill people...he will find a way. Laws don't keep people from killing people....good sense and sensible laws go a long way in doing that. I think the REAL problem behind all the gun deaths in the US is directly related to our asinine prohibition laws. I'm willing to bet that if you take those laws off the books that gun deaths here will greatly decrease. One has to look at the source of the problem in order to fix it. Without meaningful problem solutions the gun laws won't do shit. Now....I want to point out that we're talking apples and oranges again. Our right to keep and bare arms was intended to protect us from a tyrannical government. I wouldn't want that right taken away ever because I fear government far more than I fear some asshole with a pistol. Given the chance to face either I'd take the asshole with a pistol any day of the week. And Hank....you stated that you feel our constitutional right to keep and bare arms is outdated yes? I wanted to touch on that if I may? As I see it...that constitutional right was written with the express intent that it is an inherent right passed to me by my creator to protect myself and my property. Please explain to me how that right can be outdated. Was it revoked sometime in the past and I just didn't get the memo? So long as mankind walks this Earth we shall always have the right to protect ourselves. That can never be outdated.
Hank thinks that we have some how graduated to a magical time in history where we are, as a society past the need to own guns, because guns kill people! And we should all love one another. (He's delusional) As for the shooting in the UK. Do you really think that gun laws work when this dude who was a legal owner of firearms in the UK where gun laws are strict, used his legal guns to go apeshit and kill a bunch of people. He could have just as easily taken out a full playground of kids by driving his car into them. Killing lots of people can be easy for a crazy sick fuck that wants to kill people. Take away all the guns and you still have crazy sick people running around. If even 1 person had a firearm and was able to fire back on this psycho, it could have ended with less death. People can make explosives in their garage if they really want to, out of run of the mill ingredients that are all legally obtainable. Take away guns and the sickos will find another weapon to do mass damage with. Look at the taliban suicide bombers. They don't use guns but they kill lots of people with small IEDs that they made in a shed somewhere. A pipe bomb full of nails will fuck some shit up and I know people that can make on in an hour complete with a timer so you can make your escape. I'm just saying that when a criminal wants a weapon, even if they can't get a gun they will find another weapon that will do just as much damage.
My heart goes out to those loved ones & friends of the family as well. I too do not believe that banning guns will solve anything. If someone loses their mind or wants to kill someone, they will use anything to commit a violent act. Grew up around guns with all the men in my family who hunt and never once saw a gun used in front of me to harm or kill anyone....never. Now I have seen my best frd stabbed at a gas station as I was pulling up. Crazy mofo just lost it, he was belted in the side passenger of the truck and was stabbed multiple times for NO reason. The man thought he was someone else. Every country has violence.....not just the U.S. There will always be people who wish to dominate to have power and many times they resort to violence. Other's have mental issues and just snap. You have people depressed who snap too. Then there is always the drug wars over money and yes gangs everywhere (not just in the US) either. Of course you have every government wanting to control someone else or another country....this has been going on forever. Domestic violence is most likely the worse in our country along with gangs killing one another. Most of the times sharp objects such as knives are used and other times people are just knocked out by anything they get their hands on. Can't just blame guns on everything IMO. With the economy being fucked up.....people are breaking into houses or stealing money from anywhere. Not pretty....no pretty at all. Now if my child was depressed or showed any indication of being violent? No I would never have a gun in my house. Also think some people are plain stupid & don't lock them up safely due to stupidity. I believe in our constitutional right to bear arms....sorry Hank but I don't think your seeing the big picture. First off, people do still hunt for food and with the economy, I would imagine more will in the future. Plus if our government wants to try or keep pushing this socialism where the government makes our decisions for everything? Well every person will need to know they have that option to own a gun just in case they feel they need to rise to the occasion. My dad taught me to use a gun at a very young age, even got my hunting permit and gun permit. Never went hunting but I am glad he made sure his daughter knew gun safety and how to use one.
Well from what i can find the UK murder rate is 0.0140633 per 1,000 people. The murder rate in the US was 0.042802 per 1,000 people. So the US is nearly four time higher than the UK. Id say most of that was down to the availablity of guns and the guns ablility to blow massive fucking holes in ppl from a distance. Im fine with americans having guns, i live in the UK lol but i bet your murder rate would plummet if you's got rid of them all!
I’m sorry but the gun laws in the UK do work. Your right, the law will not stop every nutter killing ppl, but the law does stop 99.99% of the nutter getting a gun legally. To get a shot gun here is really hard. You have to fill in multiple forms. Your doctor has to sign you off as mentally stable; your employers need to write you a reference. You have to sit through several interviews with the police and you NEED a good reason to have it. Shooting paper targets is not a reason!!! To get a single shot rifle is even harder!!!! Everything else is illegal. Now this law stops most getting guns and since it came in in 1996 this is the first mass murder in the UK. How many mass murders you had over in the states since 1996? Criminals have guns here, but they rarely use them. Murder rates, armed robber and aggravated burglary have all fallen since 1996. How can you say this law isn’t working?
Guns are used in about 2/3 of the murders in the USA (depends on which year you are looking at). How many of those would have been prevented if we had much stricter gun laws? No one seems to have an answer. Around 3 million crimes are prevented because people use guns to protect themselves. How many of those crimes would have ended up as a murder if the victim was not armed? No one seems to have an answer. Just throwing out some more data. The more we know, the better decisions we can make.
You can ban the guns but those that want to use them for ill will always find a way. Skuzz- the UK historically had lower death by gun rates than US even prior to the 1996 ban. To claim that the lower stats now are caused simply by the UK ban is simplistic at best. Lets actually compare the violent crime stats based on weapon of choice for both Nations. *In or about 2006, there were around 60 million people in the UK as a whole, including Scotland. *In England and Wales alone (excluding Scotland....we'll be generous here) there were over 163,000 knife crimes. *By the end of 2006, there were more than 300 million people in the US as a whole. *In the US as a whole, there were fewer than 400,000 gun crimes. *In the UK, based on these numbers, there was one knife crime commited for every 374 people (rounded down). *In the US, based on these numbers, there was one gun crime committed for every 750 people — less than half a gun crime per 374 people (about 0.4987 gun crimes per 374 people, actually). This means that, based on these statistics, you are more than twice as likely to be a victim of knife crime in the UK as you are to be a victim of gun crime in the US. What does this prove? Pretty much nothing. cheers,
