SFC-I didn't understand the first sentence in your post. I think you missed a word or I'm dyslexic. One of the two.
It seems to me that great empires usually fall by force. In the past all force has been conventional (except bombing japan), but now conventional warfare has seen its limitation. Even nuclear warfare is limited. You must have a piece of land to target if you want to launch a nuke. You cant use nukes to wipe out an enitire race or class of people. Bioweapons are what i see as the new force by which to topple empires. The target people cannot retaliate with anything. You cannot shoot or nuke a biological agent, and even if you found its source it will come down to a handfull of culpable people, not a nation/government. Can you be justified to bomb an entire country to nothingness in retaliation to a few scientists/terrorists who develop and employ a biological weapon? I guess you could, but you'll probably be dripping puss and coughing up blood by then anyway. If humanity can survive the new type of war that is comming, i shudder to think what will come after that, maybe a doomsday divice that takes out the globe? But maybe humanity will get lucky with bioweapons and we'll get sent to the same place the dinosaurs went.
"A dooms day device that takes out the globe".... rest assured some ******* will invent it and an even bigger ******* will put it into production.
It seems to me that empires fall when they over expand. Great empires of the past have also fallen shortly after the society ceased to hold their arts in high respect; ie: mass-produced statues in Egypt and Rome instead of singular works of art. I have had dreams of Asian Invasions.
QUOTE Quote: from llIndigoll on 1:15 pm on Dec. 28, 2004 It seems to me that empires fall when they over expand. Great empires of the past have also fallen shortly after the society ceased to hold their arts in high respect; ie: mass-produced statues in Egypt and Rome instead of singular works of art. I have had dreams of Asian Invasions. In the past there was always a new land or some frontier that people could go to, to start anew. There are no such places in the New Tech World. I wonder how this changes the political landscape. Randy (Edited by Randy High at 8:42 am on Dec. 29, 2004)
China's military has the US out numbered 20 to 1. The one thing keeping us alive is our advanced technology. I've seen quite a bit of what these other countries are capable of if anyone every seriously got pissed off, the US may be in for a treat. Sure we can fire a weapon and hit a shoe box dead center from a mile away, sure we have guns with cameras that we can point around the corner and shot whoevers over there without putting ourselves in the line of fire, sure we can pull the trigger on a gun and it will release a bomb from a plane and where ever we point the gun is where the bomb will hit, sure sure it's all fine and dandy BUT if we are so overly out numbered and over powered with the technology much like our own, I'm not sure how everything would turn out. Maybe what they say is true. WW III will be fought with sticks and stones because after we finish blowing up everything there will be nothing left. The U.S. might have the ultimate technology but when it comes to number of soldiers we could become easily outdone. Take all the computers and special gadgets, give us all basic M16s and put us up against China with nothing special but guns, we would be slautered without a second thought and the U.S. would be no more, hands down, we have it in our heads no one can **** with us but what happened on September 11th? Did our airports do a good enough job so that they could have stopped the attacks before it happened? Has Bin Laden been caught yet? Have all the terriost camps been ripped apart? Apparently were not as smart and witty and "supreme" as we think. When we can come to terms of peace with ourselves, then and only then, will we be able to come to peace with others... PeAcE
I would think in a scenario like this it would be nearly impossible to successfully invade the United States without Nuclear weapons being deeply involved. Seems like a few nukes would have to be launched and successful on strategic military and civilian targets in order to disorient us enough to make way for their bombers, fighters and sea going vessels to soften our exterior. Lets face it they cant make a single move by sea without us knowing where theyre going and why, 99% of the time. So a full scale invasion would have to come after some pretty serious events I'd imagine. If they move a port-o-let 5 feet to the left in North Korea or China we know about it, the odds of them(China, Korea or anyone for that matter) moving an entire army or launching an attack by air or sea without us being aware and fully prepared are slim to none. We dominate the air regardless of whether or not they have 3 planes to our one... our pilots and technology are superior and they know this. Whether we're out numbered or not we're formidable and Whoevers responsible for this invasion will have to be a lunatic or lunatics rather on the level of an Adolf Hitler and the Nazi party no doubt about it. These individuals will also be fully aware of the fact that a nuclear attack MUST precede the conventional weapons invasion in order for them to get anywhere whatsoever...In other words it wont be pretty, Lets honestly hope this never happens.
Haze that's one of the few posts I completely agree with you on. Bravo.... First mistake in warfare is underestimating your enemy. SD US border patrol have gone on record that they have witnessed Chinese troops performing manuvers in parts of Mexico AND Canada. They have reported it time and again just to have their stories fall on deaf ears. These guys have no official markings on their clothing either. I agree that nobody can sneek up on us from the ocean for a full scale invasion, but they can be put in place long before the move is made and so close to our own backyard that we would not see them coming till it was too late. With all our troops out of the country fighting wars we are left wide open for an invasion that we would be hard pressed to repell. Red Dawn anyone?
Well thanks Herb, I'm glad someone shares the same opinion as me on this. =), made me feel all special inside hehe. Exactly right about the soldiers being in other countrys and not being here to protect. As soon as some come home from Iraq the same number if not more are being shipped right out behind them. About 3 whole bus loads were shipped out yesterday alone from troops around mine right as some where coming back. They look pretty rough, once you go there and come back I honestly don't believe your ever the same. Not from what I've seen anyway. SD- I was saying that if you take all of our technology away, all the planes, all the explosives, and leave us with nothing but a standard M16, and put us up against China or someone big like that, and we'd be taken down in the blink of an eye. Herb is right there also, never under estimate your enemy. Theres no telling what their capable of these days. But with the technology that we DO have, your exactly right there SD, were unmatched. We can still be attacked, and be somewhat prepared, not as much as we think tho, remember 9/11, but still somewhat prepared. They could fly about 30,000 feet in the air and we mistake them for a commercial air flight and then next thing you known Chinese Halo jumpers are falling from the sky all over the place launching bombs and explosives in a huge part of a city and cause some serious damage. Granted it's not likely that will ever happen but it possibly could if anyone really wanted to. War is a very tricky and very confusing thing, it's hard to know exactly what could ever happen. Gives everyone something to think about though.. PeAcE
QUOTE Quote: from SD on 9:51 pm on Dec. 29, 2004 I would think in a scenario like this it would be nearly impossible to successfully invade the United States without Nuclear weapons being deeply involved. Seems like a few nukes would have to be launched and successful on strategic military and civilian targets in order to disorient us enough to make way for their bombers, fighters and sea going vessels to soften our exterior. Lets face it they cant make a single move by sea without us knowing where theyre going and why, 99% of the time. So a full scale invasion would have to come after some pretty serious events I'd imagine. If they move a port-o-let 5 feet to the left in North Korea or China we know about it, the odds of them(China, Korea or anyone for that matter) moving an entire army or launching an attack by air or sea without us being aware and fully prepared are slim to none. We dominate the air regardless of whether or not they have 3 planes to our one... our pilots and technology are superior and they know this. Whether we're out numbered or not we're formidable and Whoevers responsible for this invasion will have to be a lunatic or lunatics rather on the level of an Adolf Hitler and the Nazi party no doubt about it. These individuals will also be fully aware of the fact that a nuclear attack MUST precede the conventional weapons invasion in order for them to get anywhere whatsoever...In other words it wont be pretty, Lets honestly hope this never happens. All someone would really have to do is knock out our satellites.
QUOTE Quote: from fishman on 6:56 am on Dec. 30, 2004 QUOTE Quote: from SD on 9:51 pm on Dec. 29, 2004 I would think in a scenario like this it would be nearly impossible to successfully invade the United States without Nuclear weapons being deeply involved. Seems like a few nukes would have to be launched and successful on strategic military and civilian targets in order to disorient us enough to make way for their bombers, fighters and sea going vessels to soften our exterior. Lets face it they cant make a single move by sea without us knowing where theyre going and why, 99% of the time. So a full scale invasion would have to come after some pretty serious events I'd imagine. If they move a port-o-let 5 feet to the left in North Korea or China we know about it, the odds of them(China, Korea or anyone for that matter) moving an entire army or launching an attack by air or sea without us being aware and fully prepared are slim to none. We dominate the air regardless of whether or not they have 3 planes to our one... our pilots and technology are superior and they know this. Whether we're out numbered or not we're formidable and Whoevers responsible for this invasion will have to be a lunatic or lunatics rather on the level of an Adolf Hitler and the Nazi party no doubt about it. These individuals will also be fully aware of the fact that a nuclear attack MUST precede the conventional weapons invasion in order for them to get anywhere whatsoever...In other words it wont be pretty, Lets honestly hope this never happens. All someone would really have to do is knock out our satellites. Or make our farm land unusable. That would shift power big time. Remember the crop duster airplane over the midwest scare after 911? Randy
Good points all of them. Youre right they could easily soften up our defenses some with properly placed terrorist attacks. The type that are highly unexpected and devastating possibly germ warfare or large scale chemical warfare done with weapons infiltrating our borders undetected. In that case nuclear weapons wouldnt be needed to strike a blow and catch us off guard thats true. And filtering troops into Canada and Mexico on a small scale a 1 by 1 type scenario would probably be alot easier then I would imagine. The only thing is, it would be nearly impossible for large scale military maneuvers to take place in parts of Canada or Mexico without us noticing, then again these soldiers could be broken down into small cells practicing maneuvers undetected until the day comes when they ban together and invade, and in that case we wouldnt have much time to prepare and react. I'd hope we're prepared for such a thing already and if not I'd say the stoners of GrowKind need to take over because our government is pretty dense. These things have been thought of by our government a million and one times whether we're fully prepared for them or not, I dont know. At the same time theyre going to need air and sea power to invade succesfully. The scenario we're speaking of would be the very beginning of the battle the tip of the iceberg and in and of itself not a "succesful" invasion. It takes much more than that to successfully invade and conquer a country like the United States(were not france LOL) and we have to remember using germ warfare may not be feasible in this situation because they would be putting their soldiers at risk as well... unless of course theyre vaccinatedbut then again if their vaccinated for the substance then our soldiers most likely are as well...Yeah its very real possibility, would it be successful? I personally believe we could contain it enough to prevent air and sea domination on there part anyway. But if you add a few countries into the mix, us vs. THEM(meaning many) were in for some rough times. All we could do as civilians in that situation is fight for our lives and the lives of our loved ones. Put Americans in a situation like that and its like cornering a rabid dog in IMHO if they think weve met resistence by the people in Iraq, theyre going to be shocked at the resistance theyre going to meet by the civilians over here. Militia anyone? (Edited by SD at 12:25 pm on Dec. 30, 2004)
Not really SD....the people of America are quite weak as a whole now. We are not the hardened people we once were with all our frills of modern society. Yes there are a lot of us that are willing to fight, but an even larger portion don't even know what to do in the case of a blackout let alone a military invasion. Many people don't even own guns these days. Would be like bringing a kitchen knife to a gun fight. What history teaches is that when a nation becomes complacent in their strength they soon forget it's their greatest weakness. Would take but a few things to shut down our dominance....that's a fact of war. Cut off oil supplies and we are fucked...wipe out our communications and we are fucked. The biggest problem I see is having our military half-way around the world...think of how long it takes to get them back here to help repell an invasion. When they finally DID get back it would be too late. The best offence is a good defense and that my friend we have left wide open for anyone to come right in. No matter how big and bad a nation is they ALWAYS have a weakness and you better believe that our enemies will exploit them to the fullest....we can't think we have the advantage and rely on that to save our butts because it will be our downfall.
Preach it Brother!!! Very well said indeed!! PeAcE (Edited by HazeNHydro420 at 11:57 am on Dec. 30, 2004)
Theres no doubt about it Herb every nation has an Achilles heal. I would hope our Government is intelligent enough and posesses a survival instinct strong enough that would lead them to seriously think about the things we're discussing here and hopefully they have back up plans implemented in order to counter them. We have a high level of self preservation in this country citizens and government alike if we didnt we wouldnt be the nation we are. There are more guns on the streets today then there ever were, millions. I would hope in a situation like this at least half of the gun owners in The United States would have the courage to step forward if need be. You have valid points however I believe the resistance would be stronger on the civilians part. The thought of succumbing to Communist Rule is viewed as worse then death to many in a grossly capitalist society like ours. Im willing to bet youd see quite a few yuppies in Armani suits fireing off a few rounds in order to save their freedom to simply have a cup of joe at Starbucks every morning Youd be surprised at what people will do to save their freedom. 911 summed it up showing the people could still rally together. We have it in us it just takes a drastic event to bring it out in some of us, which this would certainly be. Fear can be an amazing tool when it comes to fighting for survival. I personally believe Mike Tyson is one of the biggest Chickens known to man deep down on the inside but have you ever seen that man fight in his hayday in the ring...pure fear harnessed to knock people out quickly that was his style. Read about his history the man thrives on it and used it to his advantage in the ring. Never underestimate the fear factor when a person is 'cornered' it makes the most docile of people, wild & formidable. Theyre in for a big surprise, they underestimate us IMHO.
There's no doubt we would put up a fight and that there are a lot of guns out there....Problem is how many of those that own guns are trained to use them in combat? How many of those would be lead as a whole with a military purpose? That makes the difference in my opinion. Unorganized resistance means dick when it comes down to fighting a force that is trained to take you down. They could simply take us out one pocket at a time.
Hell yes they would! Trained military personal taking on untrained civilians....no contest. Heres a scenario for you. They come to my home I take out one of them and severely wound another before theyre able to kill my wife and I. Futile resistance, but resitance just the same. There are small pockets of militia in the States similar to iraqi resistance, you know this. Its a huge deal in the south. Small cells with weapons beyond your average .38 pistol. When I was in middle school a friend of mines father belonged to one of these. We would go fish with his father and buddies on the St. Johns river they were highly organized many of them vets, they stock piled many different types of weapons they would hunt gators with M16s this was the 80s. They are 3 fold now. They exist in larger numbers more then many would believe waiting for events such as this. The rednecks believe it or not will be a HUGE asset if this ever takes place trust me. Your wife and children are at risk of being raped murdered or imprisoned and tortured by a foreign army....do you join an organized militia or resistance group. HELL YES! Only true blue cowards wouldnt. If this scenario were ever to take place there are going to be people you thought would run and hide fighting side by side to save their loved ones. Count on it... The invading army will be shocked. I believe this firmly.
