US / World Economy in Trouble

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Administrator, Feb 20, 2008.

Page 12 of 26
  1. brand

    brand Begun Flowering

    I watched the movie Maxed Out:Hard times last night. Pretty pitiful how this has all gone down. From our stinky president taking so much money from credit card companies, and passing laws to protect them and their criminal ways. They showed where a down syndrome boy had to practice printing his name so he could sign the papers from the leeches. The boy drew a check from uncle sam being retarted and they wanted it. Pitiful, pitiful, pitiful. Everyone should watch it if you can. I seen it on Encore.


    PLEASE TRY TO SEE THIS MOVIE
     
    brand, Oct 4, 2008
    #221
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  2. brand

    brand Begun Flowering

    Its not all the big salaries that have done it scuzz, you are right. You must not be an investor. You would know what we are talking about if you had owned any ENRON, MCI, and many more. Watch your investment go to hell and the ceo resign with a 30 million dollar bonus while the company is filing bankruptcy papers. Yes I say that is a problem. A big problem.
     
    brand, Oct 4, 2008
    #222
  3. EvilSkuzzi

    EvilSkuzzi Sweet Guy

    Yes i am an investor. But i dont invest in US business!


    As i said before the US system sucks and is very risky. Even though the investment rating agency's (moody and the like) say it isnt. Enron could never have even dreamt of filing accounts like they did in the US in the UK.


    Their auditors would have laughed them out of their office!
     
    EvilSkuzzi, Oct 4, 2008
    #223
    Mermaid likes this.
  4. Mermaid

    Mermaid ~Sea Of Green~

    Amen brother!!


    I guess I come from a differ era for I too never understood why people let themselves get into credit card debt OR buy a house they know they can not afford. Even if the sales men tell them ohh your approved and I can get you this house>>>when does common sense kick in with people??? Not to be mean but like my lil brother is up to his ass in credit cards due to not telling his wife NO the piggy bank is empty. ????


    I never liked credit cards.....never! Guess I am more like my dad in that respect that I will go without until I save and can afford it. Sure we all want the big pretty house loaded with all new stuff but when you lose your fancy house then where do you end up??


    I have a nice house but everything is bought and paid for and yep it is old but it is built better then the new crap they are selling for 300,000 for sometimes new is not always good. ;) I just keep saving and remodeling each room as I can afford it. My children know that money does not grow on trees and you have to work for things you want in life. When I was little I watched my parents struggle and then watched them save up and by the time I was 12 my dad had saved enuff money to add a HUGE addition but he too barters and so he would do side jobs for people like fixing things and plumbing after he worked 8 hours or more a day. Then he had lots of those customers who all had special talents help him with building our new addition so it was not as expensive. There was NO job beneath him and maybe that is also the problem in America, I hear teens say I am not gonna take a job flipping burgers. Well way I see it you have to start out somewhere and usually it is at the bottom. I worked since I was 12 babysitting and then BurgerKing. When I realized I did not like making low pay ...I knew I wanted more for myself. I used my talents in art and went to college to land a job as a artist sketching in a teaching hospital in a OR for the surgeons. Then my children came along and I went back to school a couple nights a week to get a job in Education for I knew I wanted the same work hours as they had when in school to save money so I would not have to pay a sitter. Education does not pay alot of money BUT the pension is good and so are my health benefits which I needed after my divorce. Good thing is I love children so yah I was lucky to get a job I did like.


    The one thing bad in America IMO Skuzz and all is people who are good at working with their hands are not getting work. All being shipped overseas OR yep they hire illegal aliens to do it at a cheaper rate. Many are out of work so I do feel for them. Now people are going back to renting for they can't get loans or afford to buy a house. Sucks.....maybe the Americans did screw themselves but so did our government for how many things do you think are made in the USA. We need to get that back.....then you will see people living the dream and working to put food on their table. If they do drill for oil....that will open up the steele mills shut down in PA for someone has to make the pipes. ;) We need to say no to the goverment and that is my one issue with Democrats is they want MORE government in our lives. As far as wall street.....why should we pay?? Look the economy will yes slow down but I can not see paying taxes to foot the bills of the greedy ones who yep made rockstar salaries and knew damn well these loans would fault! People can not pay these amounts for houses and at those interest rates....so I feel it is both the lenders and the borrowers fault. I do not place blame on just one....it is the lack of common sense that we should all have to just say NO when you go shopping and want something you can not frigging afford. Maybe this will wake up the spoiled in our world on both ends to go without. Makes one appreciate what is important which is NOT the brand new Ipods, big screen tvs, new cell phones, cars, furniture when you have furniture to sit on that is not damaged, to stop buying take out and actually buy food to cook for your children and just stop acting like a baby. Way I see it we need very few things, shelter, food, healthcare, transportation and a job. A home is what you make it and if full of love you will do just fine. Save for those things in life you crave for I think if one paid with cash instead of plastic they would think twice>>hmm do I really need it??? ;)


    Good thread and love the opinions of all....we are very smart IMO.


    America will be fine if we start reading the small print and start saying NO to lots of things including plastic. I like I own my house and no one can take it...well unless I do not pay my taxes but other then that I know how to stretch my dollars. Just need to budget and set goals is all....but for those who lost their jobs...ughh I do feel for you. Hopefully in this next year we will be able to open up more work and stop sending it to our enemies.


    I want to see more of MADE IN AMERICA when I purchase things!
     
    Mermaid, Oct 4, 2008
    #224
  5. Administrator

    Administrator Administrator

    Actually...the UK has invested very heavily in MBS's (morgage backed securities) and will feel the pain as much if not more so than we will here. This is more than a US problem...this is global. To say the fault lies only with US lenders is just ignorance Scuzz...plain and simple, but you go on thinking what you will. It'll come home to roost for you in the UK very soon I assure you. :suave:
     
    Administrator, Oct 4, 2008
    #225
  6. Mermaid

    Mermaid ~Sea Of Green~

    Well come to think bout it....that is true for the other stock markets in other countries shut down when shit hit here.


    Hope you did not invest or work for those investing in the stock market here.


    I forgot to read back but thought you said you did not invest in US stocks??


    Herb is right that other countries are feeling it already and pretty scared as it is more of a global effect. I still do not feel I should pay for the mistakes being I did not borrow but I will pay in taxes now which yep pisses me off. Way I see it....we bail them out and what if they fuck up again?? Which you know they will for greed is everywhere. Always someone trying to get more then they deserve or work for. Sure some may work their ass off but if they were monitoring what was going on we would not be in this pickle so that tells me management was corrupt. Not sure if the government should regulate either because they too are corrupt. ;)


    Everyone says we have to bail out and it has to be done. Well hmmmm I do not think the average American will see any profit or anything positive from being taxed up the ass to pay off bad debts??


    You play....you pay is my motto! Same with people who gamble their money in stocks....sure you may win but how many times do ya take a hit and lose? Common sense will never come to people's mind if we keep letting this happen. Anyone can be book smart but common sense you learn from screwing up and not wanting to repeat the same mistake IMO.


    Anywhos....no matter what we will pay, they will gain more and more power and homeowners will prolly lose all they have to end up renting for that is where this is going.


    We are already in a recession...so the economy slows up? Maybe people need to stop buying things they do not need but just want? Who knows the correct answer for the media will tell you "oh we have to bail them out". Others say NO like me and "why should we"? No right or wrong answer but I sure hope the Americans(only the ones who took a loan they could NOT AFFORD) and wall street learned a hard lesson on money and how to handle it. ;)
     
    Mermaid, Oct 4, 2008
    #226
  7. TheApprentice

    TheApprentice Retired.

    Its already biting our asses here in the UK,same everywhere i think..

    It already has Herb,im even seeing it in my own family cos this so called 'credit crunch' has affected the housing market real bad,so much so that its even reached scotland now and my mum cant even sell her own home and when she does she aint gonna get anywhere near what it is worth considering she only moved into it over a year ago and my step dad has done extensive renovations and home improvements that have added value to the home yet still she wont recoup her cash..


    Thats why Gordon Brown BANNED 'short selling' and flew to the states to see Bush cos he was our treasurer for manyyears and he knows an economic crisis when he sees one and this IS a global thing.The governments of greece and Ireland have told all their banks customers that their cash in the banks will be guarenteed by the govt...so now everyones rushing to put their cash into the bank of ireland,lol,although now that the govt has NATIONILIZED 2 huge banks id say put your money into them 2 banks cos now they are state owned your cash is safe and any shares will rise aswell and the govt will make a PROFIT from the buy outs eventually.Peace:ebert:


    PS: Heres just a snippet from yahoo news from our treasury chancellor and also our prime minister on just how bad the GLOBAL CRISIS is... it MAY have started in america but its the fault of ppl everywhere from the spivs to the ppl who spend big yet have no money,credit is whats crippling ALL our nations:sad4: £1 trillion annually on visa cards in the UK alone per annum.:potleaf:


    In his speech the chancellor will echo Brown's pledge to do "whatever it takes" to steer Britain through the crisis.


    However he will add: "I can promise you that whatever weaknesses are found in the financial system I shall take steps to deal with them, but this is a global problem and it will take global solutions, not knee-jerk reactions, but a measured response."


    The chancellor also said the UK economy is going through "unprecedentedly difficult times" that are "clearly going to last for a while".


    "There are two shocks the whole world is suffering from: the effects of the credit crunch and the inflationary pressures from rising oil prices. Combined, it means that we are seeing turbulence that we have not seen in, maybe, the last 50 or 60 years.


    "Every economy is being affected by it, ours is no exception and it throws up difficult things that you have to deal with. But you just have to get on with it.


    "I am confident that we will get through it and, provided we take the right decisions to stabilise the financial system and help people and businesses get through a difficult time, we can do it."


    The financial crisis engulfing the British economy has lurched to a new low as £51 billion was wiped off the value of the country’s top companies.


    On a chaotic day in the City, the pound suffered its worst one-day fall since Black Wednesday in 1992 amidst fears of a growing global recession.


    As the stock market was hit by the shockwaves from America’s latest corporate meltdown, experts have warned that Britain is heading for its worst financial crisis in decades.


    Their bleak prediction came as:


    • Britain’s biggest mortgage lender, Halifax Bank of Scotland, lost 13 per cent of its value amid fears that its profits will be severely affected by the global credit crunch.


    • Both Barclays and Royal Bank of Scotland had nine per cent wiped off their share price as the FTSE 100 index plunged by almost four per cent to a two year low.


    • Fears grew that another major investment bank could be in serious trouble following the near collapse of Bear Stearns


    The Bank of England pumped £5 billion into the money markets in an attempt to restore confidence in the banking system.


    However, it’s intervention was not enough to prevent alarm spreading through the economy, with predictions that the worst is still to come.


    As well as devaluing the share holdings of millions of ordinary investors, the 3.9 per cent plunge in the FTSE-100 index has serious implications for pension funds.


    The slump was triggered by the fire sale of the US investment bank Bear Stearns over the weekend, which was snapped up by its rival JP Morgan Chase for just £116 million on Sunday - less than one per cent of what it was worth a year ago.


    Bear Stearns, the ninth-biggest investment bank in the world, had been on the brink of collapse because of massive losses as a result of the sub-prime mortgage crisis, and there are now fears that other banking giants could also be in serious trouble.


    The Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, promised to take “whatever action is necessary” to maintain economic stability.


    But many City veterans said the UK is heading for its worst financial crisis in ‘living memory’.


    Terry Smith, chief executive of Tullett Prebon, a specialist broker in the City, said: “I have been working in finance in the City and worldwide for 34 years and I have never seen anything like this.


    “I don’t think anybody alive has seen events of this seriousness and magnitude affecting the financial markets.”


    David Buick of the spread betting firm Cantor Index said: “No one in living memory has ever seen a banking crisis like this. I have worked in the Square Mile for 46 years and the outlook has never looked as bleak.”


    The turmoil in the Square Mile had immediate knock-on effects for homeowners, with Halifax/Bank of Scotland, the country’s largest mortgage lender, increasing the rates on some of its tracker-rate mortgages by as much as 0.3 percentage points, with some fixed-rate deals also going up.


    Meanwhile, Scottish Widows pulled all of its two and three-year fixed-rate mortgages and all of its buy-to-let range in response to the uncertainty in the markets.


    It also emerged that three million homeowners face an increase of up to £300 a month in their mortgage bill as they have to take out new home loans at a much higher interest rate than when they were first arranged.


    Families across Britain are already suffering from the effects of the credit crunch, which has seen household bills steadily increase since last summer.


    The Bank of England’s £5 billion intervention, the first such cash injection since the credit crunch first began to bite six months ago, was aimed at easing a sudden freeze in overnight lending between banks brought on by the Bear Stearns sell-off.


    But the move had limited impact, as banks had asked for five times as much money to be pumped into the system.


    Sterling dropped almost two per cent against a group of other leading currencies - its worst fall since being ejected from the Exchange Rate Mechanism on Black Wednesday in 1992, and its lowest level since January 1997.


    The credit crunch has now seen the value of Britain’s top 100 companies fall by nearly 20 per cent since June last year.


    In addition the stock market slump wiped £8 billion off the value of the country’s 200 biggest defined benefit pension funds, which include final salary schemes.


    The collective funds fell from a surplus of £15 billion at the end of Friday to a surplus of £7 billion at the close of trading.


    Defined benefit schemes guarantee the size of an employee’s pension when they retire, meaning the holders of such pensions will not be directly affected, but there were warnings that other pension holders could be badly hit.


    Anyone with a pension which requires them to use their pension pot to buy an annuity could see the size of their pension fund severely depleted by the stock market losses, experts predicted, and some may end up having to postpone their retirement as a result.


    Oil prices also hit a new record $112 per barrel as fears over the state of the US economy grew and the dollar weakened to a record low of $1.59 against the Euro.


    The US Federal Reserve had tried to stave off the worst of the crisis by cutting the rate at which it lends to other banks by 0.25 per cent, and set up a new lending facility to give banks short-term cash, which was praised by President Bush as “strong, decisive action”.


    But the rate cut only appeared to have fuelled fears that other banks are in trouble. Sandy Chen, a banking analyst at Panmure Gordon, said: “We interpret this as a clear indicator that other firms may be vulnerable.”


    David Jones, chief markets strategist at IG Index, said: “This just demonstrates the nerves which are still out there and I don’t think we’ve seen the worst of it yet. Every time we think we have, we get another bolt from the blue.”


    The slump in the value of bank shares was fuelled by fears that Bear Stearns and all the rest may not be the last banks teetering on the brink of collapse.


    Edmund Shing, a strategist for BNP Paribas, said: “Everyone is asking: Who’s next? Is there a Bear Stearns in Europe?”
     
    TheApprentice, Oct 5, 2008
    #227
  8. Administrator

    Administrator Administrator

    Remember one word people.....'derivatives'....for those are what will bring us down....soon.


    This bailout is nothing more than the big cheeses getting what they can before it all comes crashing down. Just the urgency in which this was passed and the desperation Bush had should spell it all out for everyone. These people know what's about to happen and they are cashing out while they still can. It's so clear now that you have to see it....maybe not....I dunno. I do know I see it and so do some other people who can read the writing on the wall, or in other words....those that see the evidence and where it's leading us.


    This article I will post in it's entirety because it's so important IMO. Once you've read it once.....read it again and get ready to be sobered because the day has come folks. If you haven't gotten your house in order I suggest you seriously do so now. There's not much time left.


    Personally.....I'm in a state of numbness. I want to believe that this is all a dream but then I snap back to reality and realize that this is happening before my own eyes. I do a lot of research on this and everything I read is saying the same thing.....and none of it good. I know this....I'm glad I have food stored. :sign13:


    Here's the article....





     The Abyss This Time

     
    Administrator, Oct 5, 2008
    #228
  9. EvilSkuzzi

    EvilSkuzzi Sweet Guy

    Its def here in the uk herb. I know our banks have bought into these sub prime loan. They were AAA rated debt. Who didnt.


    But my point was that this debt was sold in an unregulated market in the US by greedy little sales men. We have sub prime loans in the UK but there harder to get than what was sold in the US 2 years ago. You could self cert anything.
     
    EvilSkuzzi, Oct 5, 2008
    #229
  10. ClayStreet

    ClayStreet Gypsy

    well that article certainly makes my day.
     
    ClayStreet, Oct 5, 2008
    #230
  11. brand

    brand Begun Flowering

    I hope we can keep it going for another year. I am getting some chickens and 2 cows this spring to prepare the best I can. Grow some corn, for the cows and chickens, do a larger garden this spring, and use the rest of my land for hay. Finish paying off my house and hope for the best. I am not going to sweat the rental propery, just my house that I live in. Good luck to all.:5headache:


    By the way if the shit hits the fan as most here believe, you city folk are really fucked!!
     
    brand, Oct 5, 2008
    #231
  12. Administrator

    Administrator Administrator

    100% true Skuzz...I agree :ebert:


    That was the straw that broke the camel's back. There is far more to the whole picture though. Underhanded dealings went on all over the globe and that's why it's all coming down now. The sub-prime market is what got the ball rolling...now they can't stop it. :stop:
     
    Administrator, Oct 5, 2008
    #232
  13. Administrator

    Administrator Administrator

    Bailout my ass......gotta love these headlines.:suave: This to me is proof that the problem is one of no confidence rather than lack of credit which means that the bailout plan will fail miserably.


    [​IMG]


    Economy sheds most jobs since 2003, more cuts seen


    [​IMG]


    Payrolls drop by most in 5 years; more pain ahead


     [​IMG]


    Factory orders drop by 4 percent in August


    [​IMG]


    Stocks to struggle despite rescue plan


    [​IMG]


    Israeli stock market drops despite US bailout


    [​IMG]


    Cloud lifts, but Wall Street outlook still grim


    [​IMG]


    Stocks end lower amid worries after House OKs plan


    [​IMG]


    Sting in the tail on US bailout day
     
    Administrator, Oct 5, 2008
    #233
  14. ClayStreet

    ClayStreet Gypsy

    which strengthens my point earlier about the rich. Because they will NOT STAND to lose money, so they will axe all the people who make them money below, and while the rest of us have to go back to poverty, or worse poverty, and go back to hunting/fishing to feed our families during this new dark age... The rich can sit comfortably in their mansions sipping expensive champagne and throwing money logs in the fire.


    I realize now that no matter which president gets elected, they have a mess to clean up for years to come. I thought Clinton had it bad when he walked in after the last Bush term... fuck.


    What we need is civil war. There are more of us then there are of them.
     
    ClayStreet, Oct 6, 2008
    #234
  15. Administrator

    Administrator Administrator

    What we need is to come together as a community Clay. That's what it's going to take to be honest. Yeah...the rich guys will be safe and sound with their money, but reality is we won't be able to touch them...they'll be somewhere else other than in this country unfortunately. We're going to be left to pick up the pieces and that's just what we'll do. It'll be painful yes....some of us may not even survive it, but in the end we'll find our way thru and it'll make us stronger for it. You'd be surprised how well you can adapt when you have to. It's the initial shock that's such a bitch to get over.


    Now...more bad news.....sorry. :icon_confused:


    [​IMG]


    Asian markets plunge on fears crisis is spreading

     
    Administrator, Oct 6, 2008
    #235
  16. Administrator

    Administrator Administrator

    Derivatives


    For those that want to know more about derivatives here's a good start. I have been rather in the dark about these things myself so this info has opened my eyes quite a bit and helped me understand what exactly we're facing here. Maybe it can help you too.


    Parts 1 and 2 of 7......


    The world according to derivatives, part 1 of 7: Irrational exuberance creates global mayhem and mountains of taxpayer debt


    The world according to derivatives, part 2 of 7: A Faustian bargain
     
    Administrator, Oct 6, 2008
    #236
  17. Administrator

    Administrator Administrator

    Oh my how the bad news goes on. Several of these next articles I will post speak about the derivatives I've been trying to explain here. It shows just how they are starting to rear their ugly heads. This article about AIG says it all.....the derivatives are now eating away at their capital base.





    A.I.G. Uses $61 Billion of Fed Loan

    Here's another history lesson. When you start putting all the pieces of the puzzle together the big picture starts to become REAL clear. :suave:


    Agency’s ’04 Rule Let Banks Pile Up New Debt

     
    Administrator, Oct 6, 2008
    #237
  18. Administrator

    Administrator Administrator

    The New American Century cut short by 92 years

    Betrayed by the bailout: The death of democracy


    Eulogy for a nation: The bailout passes; democracy passes on . . .

     
    Administrator, Oct 6, 2008
    #238
  19. TheFomorian

    TheFomorian Neo-Shaman

    Stock numbers and all that?


    I was reading on another forum about how the World Markets had major drops overnight. As of 12:21 EST, Dow is -479, NASDAQ -108, S&P -57.


    MIB30 dropped 2,217.00 overnight. Here is the past year:


    http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/charts/chartdl.aspx?D4=1&ViewType=0&D5=0&CE=0&ComparisonsForm=1&D3=0&Symbol=%24IT%3aI930&ShowChtBt=Refresh+Chart&DateRangeForm=1&C9=2&DisplayForm=1&CP=0&PT=6


    I see lots of numbers, and have a basic idea about what they mean, but no real reference points as I've never been in the market. Is an 8.44% drop in what seems to be the largest (numerically) world market, happening overnight, as bad as that sounds?


    Right now I see at -479 that it is only a 4.76% drop, yet drops of these sizes are considered really bad on the news. By looking at the international markets, am I correct in assuming that they just took a fat one in the rear?


    I guess I'm just trying to compare US/World values.
     
    TheFomorian, Oct 6, 2008
    #239
  20. Administrator

    Administrator Administrator

    Yes...it's as bad as it sounds. In the world of numbers these small percentages...or so they seem....equate to huge numbers. :icon_confused:


    [​IMG]


    Wall Street tumbles amid global sell-off

    HERE COME THE CRONIES!!!!


    [​IMG]


    Treasury and Fed pledge rapid response to crisis

     
    Administrator, Oct 6, 2008
    #240
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