Great. A little more of our internet freedom going bye-bye.

The government is still the government... Can't we just go back to barter and trade either you grow your food personally or trade whatever it is you do grow for some. Simplicity has been lost and so have we... Good thread guys i read that article about O'Donnell in usa today about 2 weeks ago I was crackin up. I'm a confederate by choice i think centralized government needs abolished go back to states rights shit anymore a state has the budget our whole country had back in the 50-60's. Banks and Judges run the world these days if the president fucks up they impeach him and it's by a judge. If politicians don't agree they take it to court. If a large financial structure like citigroup doesn't agree they fluctuate/crash the stock market. It's a fucked up world we're living in i'm with Johnny Depp on this one I want my own island...Steelcity

 

SteelCity, a barter system would be nice, but that would mean that a complete breakdown of the technological society that we are literally tapped into right now to disappear. Also, there are simply too many people to go back to bartering.

Yep, yep, and yep. The third largest ORGANIZED party we are indeed, but the percentages are still very weak. The problem is, most people who could be classified as Libers don't like govt, and don't want to get involved, so they don't. To be a "minimal govt" govt party is almost a catch-22, you know??? A lot of hippies and the like who just want to be left alone - my BF is like this. He hates govt, wants to just live his life, doesn't like all the rules. (sound familiar???) he won't, under any threat of pain or death, vote though. He's not the only one I know like that either.


Something has to happen to really piss people off, but unfortunately, the only ones right now are the current voters, and they're just doing their own crazy shit.


I nominate Lion, the head shaker :angry7: RR can be your VP, or other way around, that would work too!!!!


I'll vote for you! :thumbs-up:


GTWT


:XXhippylove:

 

i still have My mind


They can't take that away

 

And don't forget to stop by the "Senior Center" at ever community to drop off special brownies. Then have a camera crew at each center once they completely digested it to film how happy they were once they got a taste for the herbal snack. Interview them and ask them what medical problems or arthritis they have. Then ask them do you feel better today after eating the special brownies?


peace~mermaid:anibong:

 

The start of my speech to Congress:


"You are all idiots. Good night."

 

you wouldnt even need a teleprompter....look, lions already saving us money:thumbs-up:

 

What do you think taxpayer money is for?

 

now THAT is change i can believe in

 

they R all needing the gillotine!


awsome topic BTW,


1 Q: define libertarian


2 in reference to democrat.


3 in reference to republican.


not to start a fight, but to clarify for me.


another Q: how do you know what you know, and why do you believe it?


but my feeling is libertarian = globalist, despite the name, by default, as using "living document" doctrine as the legal means to erode the US Constitution.


which is NOT the same as globalization.


any takers?

 

libertarian, in a nutshell: (i'm sure someone will correct me if i'm off on this...) as long as how you live your life affects no one else, govt shouldn't interfere with your life. govt is for constitutional govt stuff, splitting hairs is ridiculous.


here's from the Libertarian website, a summary of what a Liber believes, pertaining to the typical 'hot topics':


Preamble


As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty; a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and no one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others.


We believe that respect for individual rights is the essential precondition for a free and prosperous world, that force and fraud must be banished from human relationships, and that only through freedom can peace and prosperity be realized.


Consequently, we defend each person's right to engage in any activity that is peaceful and honest, and welcome the diversity that freedom brings. The world we seek to build is one where individuals are free to follow their own dreams in their own ways, without interference from government or any authoritarian power.


In the following pages we have set forth our basic principles and enumerated various policy stands derived from those principles.


These specific policies are not our goal, however. Our goal is nothing more nor less than a world set free in our lifetime, and it is to this end that we take these stands.


Statement of Principles


We, the members of the Libertarian Party, challenge the cult of the omnipotent state and defend the rights of the individual.


We hold that all individuals have the right to exercise sole dominion over their own lives, and have the right to live in whatever manner they choose, so long as they do not forcibly interfere with the equal right of others to live in whatever manner they choose.


Governments throughout history have regularly operated on the opposite principle, that the State has the right to dispose of the lives of individuals and the fruits of their labor. Even within the United States, all political parties other than our own grant to government the right to regulate the lives of individuals and seize the fruits of their labor without their consent.


We, on the contrary, deny the right of any government to do these things, and hold that where governments exist, they must not violate the rights of any individual: namely, (1) the right to life -- accordingly we support the prohibition of the initiation of physical force against others; (2) the right to liberty of speech and action -- accordingly we oppose all attempts by government to abridge the freedom of speech and press, as well as government censorship in any form; and (3) the right to property -- accordingly we oppose all government interference with private property, such as confiscation, nationalization, and eminent domain, and support the prohibition of robbery, trespass, fraud, and misrepresentation.


Since governments, when instituted, must not violate individual rights, we oppose all interference by government in the areas of voluntary and contractual relations among individuals. People should not be forced to sacrifice their lives and property for the benefit of others. They should be left free by government to deal with one another as free traders; and the resultant economic system, the only one compatible with the protection of individual rights, is the free market.


1.0 Personal Liberty


Individuals should be free to make choices for themselves and to accept responsibility for the consequences of the choices they make. No individual, group, or government may initiate force against any other individual, group, or government. Our support of an individual's right to make choices in life does not mean that we necessarily approve or disapprove of those choices.


1.1 Expression and Communication


We support full freedom of expression and oppose government censorship, regulation or control of communications media and technology. We favor the freedom to engage in or abstain from any religious activities that do not violate the rights of others. We oppose government actions which either aid or attack any religion.


1.2 Personal Privacy


Libertarians support the rights recognized by the Fourth Amendment to be secure in our persons,


homes, and property. Protection from unreasonable search and seizure should include records held


by third parties, such as email, medical, and library records. Only actions that infringe on the rights


of others can properly be termed crimes. We favor the repeal of all laws creating “crimes” without


victims, such as the use of drugs for medicinal or recreational purposes.


1.3 Personal Relationships


Sexual orientation, preference, gender, or gender identity should have no impact on the


government's treatment of individuals, such as in current marriage, child custody, adoption,


immigration or military service laws. Government does not have the authority to define, license or


restrict personal relationships. Consenting adults should be free to choose their own sexual practices


and personal relationships.


1.4 Abortion


Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration.


1.5 Crime and Justice


Government exists to protect the rights of every individual including life, liberty and property. Criminal laws should be limited to violation of the rights of others through force or fraud, or deliberate actions that place others involuntarily at significant risk of harm. Individuals retain the right to voluntarily assume risk of harm to themselves. We support restitution of the victim to the fullest degree possible at the expense of the criminal or the negligent wrongdoer. We oppose reduction of constitutional safeguards of the rights of the criminally accused. The rights of due process, a speedy trial, legal counsel, trial by jury, and the legal presumption of innocence until proven guilty, must not be denied. We assert the common-law right of juries to judge not only the facts but also the justice of the law.


1.6 Self-Defense


The only legitimate use of force is in defense of individual rights — life, liberty, and justly acquired


property — against aggression. This right inheres in the individual, who may agree to be aided by


any other individual or group. We affirm the individual right recognized by the Second Amendment


to keep and bear arms, and oppose the prosecution of individuals for exercising their rights of self-defense.


We oppose all laws at any level of government requiring registration of, or restricting, the


ownership, manufacture, or transfer or sale of firearms or ammunition.


2.0 Economic Liberty


Libertarians want all members of society to have abundant opportunities to achieve economic


success. A free and competitive market allocates resources in the most efficient manner. Each


person has the right to offer goods and services to others on the free market. The only proper role of


government in the economic realm is to protect property rights, adjudicate disputes, and provide a


legal framework in which voluntary trade is protected. All efforts by government to redistribute


wealth, or to control or manage trade, are improper in a free society.


2.1 Property and Contract


Property rights are entitled to the same protection as all other human rights. The owners of property have the full right to control, use, dispose of, or in any manner enjoy, their property without interference, until and unless the exercise of their control infringes the valid rights of others. We oppose all controls on wages, prices, rents, profits, production, and interest rates. We advocate the repeal of all laws banning or restricting the advertising of prices, products, or services. We oppose all violations of the right to private property, liberty of contract, and freedom of trade. The right to trade includes the right not to trade — for any reasons whatsoever. Where property, including land, has been taken from its rightful owners by the government or private action in violation of individual rights, we favor restitution to the rightful owners.


2.2 Environment


We support a clean and healthy environment and sensible use of our natural resources. Private landowners and conservation groups have a vested interest in maintaining natural resources. Pollution and misuse of resources cause damage to our ecosystem. Governments, unlike private businesses, are unaccountable for such damage done to our environment and have a terrible track record when it comes to environmental protection. Protecting the environment requires a clear definition and enforcement of individual rights in resources like land, water, air, and wildlife. Free markets and property rights stimulate the technological innovations and behavioral changes required to protect our environment and ecosystems. We realize that our planet's climate is constantly changing, but environmental advocates and social pressure are the most effective means of changing public behavior.


2.3 Energy and Resources


While energy is needed to fuel a modern society, government should not be subsidizing any particular form of energy. We oppose all government control of energy pricing, allocation, and production.


2.4 Government Finance and Spending


All persons are entitled to keep the fruits of their labor. We call for the repeal of the income tax, the abolishment of the Internal Revenue Service and all federal programs and services not required under the U.S. Constitution. We oppose any legal requirements forcing employers to serve as tax collectors. Government should not incur debt, which burdens future generations without their consent. We support the passage of a "Balanced Budget Amendment" to the U.S. Constitution, provided that the budget is balanced exclusively by cutting expenditures, and not by raising taxes.


2.5 and Financial Markets


We favor free-market banking, with unrestricted competition among banks and depository


institutions of all types. Individuals engaged in voluntary exchange should be free to use as money


any mutually agreeable commodity or item. We support a halt to inflationary monetary policies and


unconstitutional legal tender laws.


2.6 Monopolies and Corporations


We defend the right of individuals to form corporations, cooperatives and other types of companies based on voluntary association. We seek to divest government of all functions that can be provided by non-governmental organizations or private individuals. We oppose government subsidies to business, labor, or any other special interest. Industries should be governed by free markets.


2.7 Labor Markets


We support repeal of all laws which impede the ability of any person to find employment. We oppose government-fostered forced retirement. We support the right of free persons to associate or not associate in labor unions, and an employer should have the right to recognize or refuse to recognize a union. We oppose government interference in bargaining, such as compulsory arbitration or imposing an obligation to bargain.


2.8 Education


Education, like any other service, is best provided by the free market, achieving greater quality and efficiency with more diversity of choice. Schools should be managed locally to achieve greater accountability and parental involvement. Recognizing that the education of children is inextricably linked to moral values, we would return authority to parents to determine the education of their children, without interference from government. In particular, parents should have control of and responsibility for all funds expended for their children's education.


2.9 Health Care


We favor restoring and reviving a free market health care system. We recognize the freedom of


individuals to determine the level of health insurance they want, the level of health care they want,


the care providers they want, the medicines and treatments they will use and all other aspects of


their medical care, including end-of-life decisions. People should be free to purchase health


insurance across state lines.


2.10 Retirement and Income Security


Retirement planning is the responsibility of the individual, not the government. Libertarians would


phase out the current government-sponsored Social Security system and transition to a private


voluntary system. The proper and most effective source of help for the poor is the voluntary efforts


of private groups and individuals. We believe members of society will become more charitable and


civil society will be strengthened as government reduces its activity in this realm.


3.0 Securing Liberty


The protection of individual rights is the only proper purpose of government. Government is constitutionally limited so as to prevent the infringement of individual rights by the government itself. The principle of non-initiation of force should guide the relationships between governments.


3.1 National Defense


We support the maintenance of a sufficient military to defend the United States against aggression.


The United States should both avoid entangling alliances and abandon its attempts to act as


policeman for the world. We oppose any form of compulsory national service.


3.2 Internal Security and Individual Rights


The defense of the country requires that we have adequate intelligence to detect and to counter


threats to domestic security. This requirement must not take priority over maintaining the civil


liberties of our citizens. The Constitution and Bill of Rights shall not be suspended even during time


of war. Intelligence agencies that legitimately seek to preserve the security of the nation must be


subject to oversight and transparency. We oppose the government's use of secret classifications to


keep from the public information that it should have, especially that which shows that the


government has violated the law.


3.3 International Affairs


American foreign policy should seek an America at peace with the world. Our foreign policy should


emphasize defense against attack from abroad and enhance the likelihood of peace by avoiding


foreign entanglements. We would end the current U.S. government policy of foreign intervention,


including military and economic aid. We recognize the right of all people to resist tyranny and


defend themselves and their rights. We condemn the use of force, and especially the use of


terrorism, against the innocent, regardless of whether such acts are committed by governments or by


political or revolutionary groups.


3.4 Free Trade and Migration


We support the removal of governmental impediments to free trade. Political freedom and escape


from tyranny demand that individuals not be unreasonably constrained by government in the


crossing of political boundaries. Economic freedom demands the unrestricted movement of human


as well as financial capital across national borders. However, we support control over the entry into


our country of foreign nationals who pose a credible threat to security, health or property.


3.5 Rights and Discrimination


We condemn bigotry as irrational and repugnant. Government should not deny or abridge any individual's rights based on sex, wealth, race, color, creed, age, national origin, personal habits, political preference or sexual orientation. Parents, or other guardians, have the right to raise their children according to their own standards and beliefs.


3.6 Representative Government


We support electoral systems that are more representative of the electorate at the federal, state and local levels. As private voluntary groups, political parties should be allowed to establish their own rules for nomination procedures, primaries and conventions. We call for an end to any tax-financed subsidies to candidates or parties and the repeal of all laws which restrict voluntary financing of election campaigns. We oppose laws that effectively exclude alternative candidates and parties, deny ballot access, gerrymander districts, or deny the voters their right to consider all legitimate alternatives.


3.7 Self-Determination


Whenever any form of government becomes destructive of individual liberty, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to agree to such new governance as to them shall seem most likely to protect their liberty.


4.0 Omissions


Our silence about any other particular government law, regulation, ordinance, directive, edict, control, regulatory agency, activity, or machination should not be construed to imply approval.


pretty straightforward, i think. as i've said before, i think a lot more people are libers than they realize. most people really just want to be left alone, to live the life they see fit.


as far as comparing them to the repubs and dems, there's lots of info on that too. there's actually a "test" on the lib website, gives you various scenarios and questions, and based on those, tells you what similar govt party you fall in. www.lp.org if you want to check it out.....


peace


GTWT


:XXhippylove:


ps i'm waiting for this nude tea party - count me in! :cannagirl:

 

That is certainly good stuff GTWT.


My simplest explanation of a a Libertarian is this: As little government intervention as possible; As little taxes that are needed to maintain a basic federal government (regulated by the constitution) and a standing military; States rights; No interference in a persons personal life as long as their actions do not interfere with the rights of another person.

 

i would say im more of an anarcho-libertarian....privatize everything, remove government all together....its all about property rights, why should government get a say in what is to be done with the fruits of my labor, my property....they shouldnt, its mine....even the constitution grants the fed gov too much power if you ask me. :eusa_angel:

 

GTWT, thanx!!! awsome....


so, it's much clearer now....libertarian, and liberal, are NOT the same thing...kinda like globalism, and globalization...purposefully ambiguous?


ok, lets tackle constitutionalism, and constructionism....we're on a roll!


:mashed:

 

I like a lot of the ideals of Libertarians. So is there still state income tax? otherwise where does public works get funding? Roadwork in Pa is crazy expensive potholes are plentiful roads only last 2-3 years. Snow removal in the the winter and resurfacing all summer.


One thing i really wish someone would take care of is accumulation of wealth.


Also a standard practice fee why the FUCK is a visit to the dentist or doctor so crazy expensive??? I was watching Realtime with Bill Maher and David Cross was on there and he did a show for BBC he said he was in London and part of his tooth fell out. He said he went to the dentist there was a 5 minute wait and the dentist didn't take any xrays or and BS like cleaning etc. Capped his tooth in 40 minutes and it only cost 80 pounds so like 130 bucks FUCK ME i should be so lucky i break a tooth or lose a filling i'll be at the office for 2 hrs min. and expect to drop 2-400 pending.


Have you ever seen a hospital bill if you stay overnight regardless of what you get done? It's enough to buy a new car. Why??? DO doctors really need to make 150-400k a year at the fleecing of the common public for a necessity like health care? I broke my hand a while back and had to see a specialist which couldn't be done at the hospital because they don't have any one staff and this is a MAJOR hospital in downtown Pittsburgh. I asked why i had to make an appt to see someone else when i was at the hospital? The nurse flat out tells me that orthopedic specialists can charge as much as they want if they are private practice so why work at a hospital? I was shocked...


If people who claim to be truly are public servants why do they live on the big side of town, wining and dining. Why can't they make a standard wage? Why does becoming a public official grant you the right to pay yourself huge sums of money? Getting paid to be as slick as possible it's kinda of concerning when you think about it.


In my mind it all comes down to some sort of accumulation of wealth issue i may be wrong but why do individuals need so much? I'm talking billionaires and close to it personally. Bill Gates donates a ton but still i feel like most of his wealth is stagnant. Not that there has to be a specific cap but when is enough... enough?


I'm just saying the gap is getting crazy and it's starting to show... Steelcity

 

Guess I'll have to cut back on my goat porn.

 

You can thank the bloodsucking insurance companies, and the lawyers and pricks who sue them. Actually, if you get right down to it, you can thank American citizens for being so GODDAMN SUE HAPPY. grrr. that's one of my hot buttons (not the GOOD hot button either, lol)


GTWT


:XXhippylove:

 

For Libertarians any state can levy taxes as long as the people or their (true) representatives approve it. The only things the Feds need money for is a military, salaries for our elected officials and judges, what is needed to regulate state disputes and dealings with other countries, with a few other necessary evils of a modern government.


However, we need to drop about 400 departments to comply with the constitution. Executive privilege is WAY out of fucking hand.

 

I agree 100%, but how do you justify making tens of thousands of people unemployed, in the state we're currently in? Whether their jobs are justifiable or not, it's still a person/family you affect by cutting off the "tit". Just food for thought. Methinks problems like this are one of the reasons the Lib party doesn't get very far..... Things have gone on too long that they're almost impossible to reverse....


GTWT


:XXhippylove: