This may should be in the Beginner Lounge because it's something I've never done or even considered. But, I have some seeds left from my original order and was going to go ahead and germinate them before they get too old. Thing is I've had friends ask if I had any seeds because they never find any and would like to have a few. I was wondering if I took a female and the males, or a male, to a separate location (to keep from screwing up my girls) and flowered both thus pollinating the female if the new seeds would have the same genetics as the original seeds. I know that most strains are crosses between, lets say, X and Y. So is it necessary to cross X(female) and Y(male) to get XY genetics. Or can someone combine XY female and XY male and get the same genes. Just hoping that one of you Ganja Nerds can answer that for me. Thanks!! Be Cool, CG
I'm kinda thinking I've put this thread in the wrong forum. So if an Administrator or someone capable could switch it to the appropriate forum so I don't have to do it again I'd thank you.
If I'm understanding and they are seeds from the same batch and the plants would be crossed with the same type as they are they would just be the next generation. So if the seeds are an F1 cross they would just be F2s. Increases variation and reduces phenotypic consistency.
That was kind of my first thought. If you are breeding the same plants that have 2 or possibly more gene combinations the offspring of those plants could potentially have any combination of the parent's genes? So XY +XY could come out XY or XX or YY ? Thanks for the input!! Be Cool, CG
X and Y chromosomes are just the sexual pair. XX female XY male, No YY for obvious reasons (punnett square). To simplify, there are 9 more sets of chromosomes with combinations of geneotypes for various other traits in MJ. Dominant and recessive or double of both. Let say the 2 plants you are crossing have both a dominant and recessive "stretching" gene, we'll call it "S" (dom) and "s" (recessive). Ss x Ss = 1"SS" : 2"Ss" : 1"ss" probability of any 4 seeds of the cross to carry those respective traits. 1 double dominant, 2 like the parents, 1 double recessive. If the parents are both double recessive or double dominant "SS" or "ss".. SS x SS = 4 SS ss x ss = 4 ss If you don't know the respective traits of the parents, it's all an observational guessing game until you grow the offspring out, then you can calculate better what the parents were to begin with. and go from there. More to it than that, just the short answer.. Someone can explain it better I'm sure..hope that made sense. .
I was using X and Y to distingwish one plant from the other. I really shouldn't have used X and Y as reference since there are X and Y chromosomes. Plant A and Plant B could have avoided the confusion. Guess it's the mathematical side that picked those for reference since helping the kids with their geometry lately, sorry. But the info makes perfect sense and I really do appreciate the help!! I'll take several clones from the females before I even consider germinating any and look for the traits I want to pass on. Now the males may be another story because they never hung around long enough to determine positive or negative traits. Males are kinda like snakes in the house, the only good one is a dead one. But thanks again!!! Be Cool, CG
Sorta more like for your example using X and Y to distinguish plants lets just only them as place holder for some genes using X dominate and x recessive : Plant XxYy you cross with Plant XxYy, The first cross you would get mainly dominate genes in this case because of their frequency. However if you continue to inbreed within that lineage you start getting more combinations that would then express the recessive. Like wise if you are trying to exploit a recessive gene you have to hunt out a parent with that gene and that's where it gets tricky and for us a bunch of guessing sames because then you need to find two plants that are both at least heterozygous for a particular recessive trait or even homozygous, then as you in breed some traits could be maintained while others vary. So that's why priced moms and dad's are so important because for one two distinct parents when bred that given a certain offspring will still have some variation but much more consistency for each cross if chosen correctly. Hence reason why testing is also extremely important. If you want a stable strain you need stable parents that yield stable offspring. But then sometimes that also requires some IBL and/or backcrossing. And that my friend is why there are true breeders and pollen chunkers. Here a visual reference would probably serve better.
so, it sounds like the batch of seeds from -1 pollination- would produce pretty close to the same traits as the parents.:icon_confused: if the plants are supposed to be short and stocky you choose healthy parents that are short and stocky, take clones from the female and flower her to make sure she finishes properly and then you breed with one of the clones to get your seeds?
So you would test by pollinating different candidate plants to each other. Each cross you then test out the seeds and see what the off spring is like. you keep either searching for parents or then start back crossing to a parent then potentially use a BXC as one of the next parents to one of the originals to try and further hone in on a specific thing, or if you want to open up the genepool and really search do some inbred lines then start testing again in the same manner. Once you find the mix that gives you what you want or are satisfied with then the only way to get that consistently is by keeping those moms and fathers and use them generate others for seed production. Sure you can just make a cross and find some good stuff but to really put in the time to make a cultivar is going to consume you for a bit. Shit can get crazy confusing, especially if you don't document extremely carefully along the way.
Thanks Skunky for the pic. Exactly what I had in my mind. But pictures can say a lot more than words sometimes. So I'm assuming that continued breeding of the offspring plants with recessive traits of a set of parents would increase the % of offspring with the recessive gene. Thus eventually converting the once recessive to a dominate gene, assuming the recessive was the trait desired. Also I'm assuming that cloning each plant, female and male, would be necessary to retain each plant's genetic makeup for future testing and breeding. Sounds like a long and tedious process best left to the botanist. But the process fascinates me and I would love to have some conception of it. Thanks again!! Be Cool, CG
Not really. recessive can never be dominant. You can only increase the genes frequency within a population though it can absolutely never be dominate. It could be co-dominate to some degree I guess you could say. Really if you just keep doing generation after generation of the same closely related plants as such you just increase the bad. People don't just make jokes of backwoods hillbilly inbreeds for no reason. That just makes me think of The Simpsons.
Cloning a male in the backyard or basement would be a giant waste of time in my opinion. You'd be better served learning how to save skeet skeet before going through all that. Cloning dudes is WAY too much of a hassle. By the time you figure out what that pollen does, then cuttings and reveg....you'll be a year into it. Like skunky said, that why there are breeders..
Haven't you heard, the "HILLBILLIES" have requested they be referred to as "APPALACHIAN AMERICIANS":kidding: Be Cool, CG
